Funding HQL Lawsuit

[Mr H]

Very good point here. Why is a Shall Issue organization now branching out fighting a HQL, when it has gotten nowhere with it's original intent? Could the $100k be better spent on carry rights lobbying? Lets be real, ninety plus percent doing the most bitching over a HQL are ones exempt from training. I'm really not in to court battles and spending small fortunes on principals that are frankly just to get rid of a nuisance. The HQL is a crap law, but Scalia himself is on record that schemes like that are not unconstitutional. I can see the loss now, "It is just a tax" .... thank you Roberts..

I normally have you on ignore, but happened to click this...

The "Shall Issue" message was far too limited, for the fight we saw coming.

So, back in 2012, we adopted a broader focus, supporting the breadth of possible 2A issues, and the Mission Statement was changed to reflect the new direction. Have you read it? It's pretty clear. Membership started growing immediately.

We were proven right with the advent of the 2013 session.

Please make an effort to learn the history before you go snarking and sniping at a very dedicated group of people doing the hard work for YOUR rights. If you got to know the people and the stories, I'm betting I wouldn't be getting multiple PMs a week wondering who you are and why you're doing what you do.

I'm sure people would be much happier with you being a constructive part of the solution, rather than a burr under the saddle.

Closing the curtain again...

 

[Jim12]

I normally have you on ignore, but happened to click this...

The "Shall Issue" message was far too limited, for the fight we saw coming.

So, back in 2012, we adopted a broader focus, supporting the breadth of possible 2A issues, and the Mission Statement was changed to reflect the new direction. Have you read it? It's pretty clear. Membership started growing immediately.

We were proven right with the advent of the 2013 session.

Please make an effort to learn the history before you go snarking and sniping at a very dedicated group of people doing the hard work for YOUR rights. If you got to know the people and the stories, I'm betting I wouldn't be getting multiple PMs a week wondering who you are and why you're doing what you do.

I'm sure people would be much happier with you being a constructive part of the solution, rather than a burr under the saddle.

Closing the curtain again...

If the name still confuses some people, and there's reason to see why it would, has MSI considered either amending it to reflect its broader focus and inclusion, or adding a prominent by-line that's always used with it?

 

[Mr H]

If the name still confuses some people, and there's reason to see why it would, has MSI considered either amending it to reflect its broader focus and inclusion, or adding a prominent by-line that's always used with it?

"Self Defense is a Civil Right" was adopted for that purpose.

Beyond that, you'd have to ask current Leadership.

 

[Jim12]

"Self Defense is a Civil Right" was adopted for that purpose.

Beyond that, you'd have to ask current Leadership.

Mmm... I like it a lot as a byline, but it doesn't go to broadening of "shall issue," which is a defined term (that the public likely is ignorant of as to what it means). I'm sure a lot of thought and consideration went into it. Just wondering whether it's been addressed recently to see whether it's up to date with the times, activities, and goals. Have donated and will continue to do so, regardless of the name.

 

[zoostation]

Just my opinion, but as someone who works in marketing full-time I think you need to change the name. If an organization doesn't want to limit itself to one very specific issue, then it shouldn't have a self-defining title like that.

The truth is there are a lot of people in the general public who are ambivalent about CCW because they don't really want one but might be very concerned about other 2A issues, like the HQL for instance. Why limit your appeal?

Just my .02, and I know my opinion means nothing (that was already made clear to me by someone else a long time ago), but just trying to be helpful.

 

[Schipperke]

I normally have you on ignore, but happened to click this...

The "Shall Issue" message was far too limited, for the fight we saw coming.

So, back in 2012, we adopted a broader focus, supporting the breadth of possible 2A issues, and the Mission Statement was changed to reflect the new direction. Have you read it? It's pretty clear. Membership started growing immediately.

We were proven right with the advent of the 2013 session.

Please make an effort to learn the history before you go snarking and sniping at a very dedicated group of people doing the hard work for YOUR rights. If you got to know the people and the stories, I'm betting I wouldn't be getting multiple PMs a week wondering who you are and why you're doing what you do.

I'm sure people would be much happier with you being a constructive part of the solution, rather than a burr under the saddle.

Closing the curtain again...

I'll try again. Are you the esteemed parliamentarian of the MDS board, who fields all inquires of members, from those too timid to write directly? Is there a subset of Golden Girls here that chatter directly to you about people they've never met? Now put me back on ignore

 

[Boondock Saint]

Always nice to see people who act like shit heads find the ban hammer upside their skull.

I'm sorry to say that people like the jerk off in this thread drove me away from 2A activism, but this shit gets very, very old in short order. At least it did for me. I put up with it longer than I should have. Maybe one day I'll return to an active role. In the mean time, take my ducats and make use of them.

Working for our 2A rights in this state is a Sisyphean task in the first place, without the idiots cheering when the boulder doesn't stay at the top of the hill.

F***!

 

[mxrider]

Always nice to see people who act like shit heads find the ban hammer upside their skull.

I'm sorry to say that people like the jerk off in this thread drove me away from 2A activism, but this shit gets very, very old in short order. At least it did for me. I put up with it longer than I should have. Maybe one day I'll return to an active role. In the mean time, take my ducats and make use of them.

Working for our 2A rights in this state is a Sisyphean task in the first place, without the idiots cheering when the boulder doesn't stay at the top of the hill.

F***!

So very true.

I'll touch on the issue regarding the name very briefly. It has been recently discussed and was decided to not change the name at this point in time. It is something that is being monitored closely.

For those that are wondering why MSI is not being as "vocal" on the boards as you would want, please keep in mind that MSI is not MDS. MSI has been very blessed to have a presence on these boards by those in power of MDS. We also don't want to appear to be trying to "take over" MDS. MDS is not MSI's sounding board. Many of us that are in leadership roles at MSI find it difficult to find time to be on MDS to as much as we would like due to the limited amount of truly active people. We also have many people that are part of MSI that are not part of MDS so we try and communicate to all members through our email updates as the president feels appropriate. Different levels of membership give different levels of information available to them (at times). Outside of the BOD and Officers, the executive membership gets the highest level of information as they are voting members. The voting members elect the BOD and Officers to run the organization. If the executive membership wants the organization run differently, they need to elect different people to be in the positions of running the organization.

 

[rambling_one]

Let's use the NRA as an analogy. Its role in advocating rifle proficiency expanded to meet modern demands. As its name implies, MSI's initial mission was indeed CCW. The organization soon came to realize that in order to achieve that goal, legislators have to be persuaded and the public made aware of its rights.

"Maryland Shall Issue® is an all volunteer, non-partisan organization dedicated to the preservation and advancement of gun owners' rights in Maryland. It seeks to educate the community about the right of self-protection, the safe handling of firearms, and the responsibility that goes with carrying a firearm in public."

 

[DC-W]

Let's use the NRA as an analogy. Its role in advocating rifle proficiency expanded to meet modern demands. As its name implies, MSI's initial mission was indeed CCW. The organization soon came to realize that in order to achieve that goal, legislators have to be persuaded and the public made aware of its rights.

"Maryland Shall Issue® is an all volunteer, non-partisan organization dedicated to the preservation and advancement of gun owners' rights in Maryland. It seeks to educate the community about the right of self-protection, the safe handling of firearms, and the responsibility that goes with carrying a firearm in public."

Awesome point. The NRA hasn't rebranded themselves as the NGA or NFA (how ironic would that be?). Though in events I've attended, I do get the three-headed look when I say shall issue sometimes. A rebrand couldn't hurt in time, but I don't think it's appropriate at the moment.

 

[MDFF2008]

Just my opinion, but as someone who works in marketing full-time I think you need to change the name. If an organization doesn't want to limit itself to one very specific issue, then it shouldn't have a self-defining title like that.

The truth is there are a lot of people in the general public who are ambivalent about CCW because they don't really want one but might be very concerned about other 2A issues, like the HQL for instance. Why limit your appeal?

Just my .02, and I know my opinion means nothing (that was already made clear to me by someone else a long time ago), but just trying to be helpful.

This is a topic that has come up from time to time.

The main concern is that (aside from the money we spen to trademark Maryland Shall Issue) we have built up some name recongition so there are concerns about that. Also, there is a concern since we don't have shall issue, it might appear like how the Brady groups change their names all the time.

That said, I can no longer speak for MSI, but I would be interested in how we might overcome those obsticles.

 

[zoostation]

The difference is the NRA has spent 120 years and untold millions building it's association with all gun rights. And it is also primarily thought of by people today as "The NRA" and not "The National Rifle Association." I would even wager that a lot of the public could tell you what the NRA is but not tell you what it stands for.

MSI is still referred to as "Maryland Shall Issue" because when you tell someone about it, they immediately question what the acronym stands for. You then have to tell them it's Maryland Shall Issue but they stand for all gun rights, etc, etc. It's just too cumbersome to get all of that message across. And it loses the interest of people who aren't interested in concealed carry but are interested in other gun rights issues.

Yes, Greg is right, in the beginning you would lose some name recognition and have to build it back again. You would just have a keep clearly explaining what the organization is, which by the way is what you are already doing by being hamstrung with an inadequate self-defining title. The difference is, afterwards you would have a much stronger title that would appeal across all gun rights interests in the state. Sometimes you have to take a little bit of a hit at the outset to come out much better off in the long-term. There are plenty of people who don't want a carry permit but do care very much about their AR-15 in the safe being left alone, or who want a handgun just for the house and don't appreciate the HQL requirements, etc.

Just my opinions.

 

[teratos]

Very good point here. Why is a Shall Issue organization now branching out fighting a HQL, when it has gotten nowhere with it's original intent? Could the $100k be better spent on carry rights lobbying? Lets be real, ninety plus percent doing the most bitching over a HQL are ones exempt from training. I'm really not in to court battles and spending small fortunes on principals that are frankly just to get rid of a nuisance. The HQL is a crap law, but Scalia himself is on record that schemes like that are not unconstitutional. I can see the loss now, "It is just a tax" .... thank you Roberts..

Do you think throwing money at the problem will win us votes on shall issue in the GA? I'm exempt from HQL training and find it is an egregious infringement. That's why I do all of this. I don't really need to do anything, really. I have a carry permit, an HQL and plenty of evil rifles. Maybe I should just stay home like you. Nah, I'll continue doing what I think is right.

 

[6pack]

I fight, I donate to the HQL fund, and will keep doing both. Period.

As to the name, it has been discussed as stated above. This sounds like a great discussion for the September General Membership meeting. Write the BoD and let us hear what you're thinking.

 

[DC-W]

I fight, I donate to the HQL fund, and will keep doing both. Period.

As to the name, it has been discussed as stated above. This sounds like a great discussion for the September General Membership meeting. Write the BoD and let us hear what you're thinking.

Excellent for the meeting indeed.

 

[rambling_one]

I fight, I donate to the HQL fund, and will keep doing both. Period.

As to the name, it has been discussed as stated above. This sounds like a great discussion for the September General Membership meeting. Write the BoD and let us hear what you're thinking.

Those who attend the meeting and are opposed to keeping the MSI handle should be prepared to offer an alternative name and defend the proposition ...not just discuss the issue.

 

[danb]

Quite frankly, the NRA is "tapped out" and indeed, over budget, with all its other cases. Don't think we haven't checked. Did you know that Paul Clement's hourly rate is $1,100? Bet not. He represents the NRA in Peruta and other cases. The HQL is Maryland unique, so the NRA has a harder time justifying suits just for Maryland, even if they did have the money. The $100,000 is for costs and retainer. It won't be enough by itself to launch the kind of 2A suit we have in mind. It might be enough to file a more limited challenge, say, to the one shot requirement for the HQL. And there is no doubt that MSI can't do this by itself, but will need the help of ordinary people and other organizations. The gun shops, for example, are getting really hurt by the HQL. You like your gun shop? It may not be here next year.

All of this is a process still under development. We have 18 months left to bring suit. Things are moving, I just can't tell you how it will work out. It is not secret "squirrel stuff," we just don't know yet. But I will say this: If you don't pony up to the bar and sue, you deserve what happens to you. And don't think it will stop with the HQL and these requirements -- incrementalism is the name of this game. So if the thousands of gun owners of Maryland just want to sit and bitch and moan rather than pitch in, then you will excuse me while I try to do something more productive. I have contributed $100s of actual cash and many thousands of $$ of lawyer time in this area. So I have put my money where my mouth is. To all that have contributed, thank you. For the rest, I say: "Where are you?"

For a person that gets the attention of the SCT as much as he does, seems like a bargain.

 

[esqappellate]

For a person that gets the attention of the SCT as much as he does, seems like a bargain.

Clement is worth every penny.

 

[Brychan]

Well I broke down yesterday, got fingerprinted, filled out the app, and layed down $50 bucks. So I should not have to worry about this issue for several years right?
Wrong I'm going to send another $50 to MSI for the lawsuit. My oldest granddaughter will be 18 this year, I'm hoping by the time she is 21 if she is still in Md she won't have to get one.

On a side note I hope if we can get this suit off the ground the lawyer who heads this suit hammers away on the fact that not only are they taxing a right to buy a handgun, but double dipping $50 for the HQL and $10 every time you purchase to run the same background check minus the fingerprints again and again.

 

[esqappellate]

Well I broke down yesterday, got fingerprinted, filled out the app, and layed down $50 bucks. So I should not have to worry about this issue for several years right?
Wrong I'm going to send another $50 to MSI for the lawsuit. My oldest granddaughter will be 18 this year, I'm hoping by the time she is 21 if she is still in Md she won't have to get one.

On a side note I hope if we can get this suit off the ground the lawyer who heads this suit hammers away on the fact that not only are they taxing a right to buy a handgun, but double dipping $50 for the HQL and $10 every time you purchase to run the same background check minus the fingerprints again and again.

I think you can be sure that these costs will figure prominently in any suit if we can find the funds to get it off the ground.