Does a frame require an HQL?

[NateIU10]

I am sure they do. I am also sure that thorough is not the same as accurate or legally correct! lol

In this case I assure you, it is. I'll redact PII and post it later.

 

[fabsroman]

Is this legal to ship to MD? No FFL needed? No serial number needed? No HQL needed?

If so does anyone want to help me by building a 1911 for me?


http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/80-1911-lower-receiver?a=1747831

I believe that people are not allowed to help you build it unless they are an FFL, and if an FFL helps you build it then the FFL must put a serial number to it and log it in.

 

[pcfixer]

I wish you luck but I have a feeling you need an hql.

I have been wanting to try to build a 1911 but was told to get the frame I needed the hql which im not willing to do at this point. Eventually I will cave of move but not yet.

http://aresarmor.com/store/Category/1911

Rudius 80% 1911 Frame

The Rudius is an 80% pistol frame, a combination of polymer and steel materials.

Retail: $249.95 On Sale: $195.95 You Save: 22% Reward Points: 400 Stock Info: 66 In Stock

Also here.....http://www.stealtharms.net/shop/1911-series.html/

 

[SWO Daddy]

My guess is you do, since the frame can only be built into a pistol unlike an AR. I would say calling and asking Engage would be your best bet.

That's incorrect. There are multiple carbine kits that use glock frames.

 

[fabsroman]

Frame or receiver alone does not need an HQL. Whether or not it needs to go on regulated paperwork depends on the frame, according to MSP. This includes stripped, factory glock frames.

Before FSA2013 went into effect on October 1, 2013, I bought a STI 2011 frame that was listed as "other" on the Form 4473. For the life of me, I cannot remember if I had to fill out a Form 77R. Alright, I went to the video tape (i.e., filing cabinet) and I had to complete a Form 77R for it. Of course, we have to complete a Form 77R nowadays for a stripped AR15 lower, but no HQL is needed.

I would be interested in seeing how this works out. Could be another STI 2011 or three in my future, or maybe an 80% without having to worry about the outcome of this entire disaster.

https://limited-10.com/store/products/80percent/1911-80-7075-tac.html

 

[pcfixer]

I believe that people are not allowed to help you build it unless they are an FFL, and if an FFL helps you build it then the FFL must put a serial number to it and log it in.

READ THIS
https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download

 

[fabsroman]

READ THIS
https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download

"I believe" is attorney speak to allow wiggle room, etc. and not have to go searching for the actual document. I actually read that ATF ruling back when it first came out. There was a lot of discussion on here when it initially came out. Thing is, even before that ruling came out, it was illegal to help somebody build a firearm unless the "helper" was an FFL. This January ruling by the ATF was mostly a result of all the "helpers" that set up a CnC machine wherein the person building the firearm merely had to "rent" the CnC machine and push a green button to create a finished lower/receiver. The "helpers" wanted to take the position that they were not "helpers", but merely renting machinery, and incidentally coding, to a person that finished the receiver on his/her own.

 

[NateIU10]

Before FSA2013 went into effect on October 1, 2013, I bought a STI 2011 frame that was listed as "other" on the Form 4473. For the life of me, I cannot remember if I had to fill out a Form 77R. Alright, I went to the video tape (i.e., filing cabinet) and I had to complete a Form 77R for it. Of course, we have to complete a Form 77R nowadays for a stripped AR15 lower, but no HQL is needed.

I would be interested in seeing how this works out. Could be another STI 2011 or three in my future, or maybe an 80% without having to worry about the outcome of this entire disaster.

https://limited-10.com/store/products/80percent/1911-80-7075-tac.html

It's pretty indefensible to say a 1911 frame or the like is a regulated firearm, and hopefully MSP agrees.

 

[Gunslinger669]

You may want to read the above post from a dealer and attorney who has stated that even MSP has said it is legal to do stripped frames without an HQL. No need to sneak around anything. Nice insinuation. Ken has been an active and responsible member of this forum for a long time, and I don't think anyone here doubts his ability to get an HQL if he so chooses. This is not the way to make friends here on your third post just fyi.

So - let's look at intent. Is it your intent to buy a pistol frame as a paperweight, or is it to build a pistol and avoid the requirement to obtain an HQL for a regulated firearm? Who's kidding who?

Look, the law's the law; areas open for interpretation will be interpreted by those charged with enforcement or by those exposed to the potential of a negative interpretation. Until the law is more clearly defined or a written directive is issued it's a crap shoot. Hey, I think it's great that he can choose to stand on his principles and never buy a regulated weapon in this state again. I choose not to, and if my goal was to "make friends" I'd join Facebook. I joined here because the ratio of rabid idiots to responsible weapons owners was the lowest I could find, and there was an abundance of intelligent and interesting discourse.

 

[pcfixer]

"I believe" is attorney speak to allow wiggle room, etc. and not have to go searching for the actual document. I actually read that ATF ruling back when it first came out. There was a lot of discussion on here when it initially came out. Thing is, even before that ruling came out, it was illegal to help somebody build a firearm unless the "helper" was an FFL. This January ruling by the ATF was mostly a result of all the "helpers" that set up a CnC machine wherein the person building the firearm merely had to "rent" the CnC machine and push a green button to create a finished lower/receiver. The "helpers" wanted to take the position that they were not "helpers", but merely renting machinery, and incidentally coding, to a person that finished the receiver on his/her own.

quoted:
Held further,
a business (including an association or society) may not avoid themanufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including framesor receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that
business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment.

 

[zoostation]

So - let's look at intent. Is it your intent to buy a pistol frame as a paperweight, or is it to build a pistol and avoid the requirement to obtain an HQL for a regulated firearm? Who's kidding who?

Nobody is trying to kid anyone, that's what you seem to keep missing. You're inventing a law when there isn't one. The "intent" is irrelevant.

And its good you joined here for the right reasons. So let's not start by jumping in and casting insinuations about other people's motives for disagreeing with you, which is exactly what you did.

 

[zoostation]

Unfortunately things have gotten exponentially worse with LD recently, IMO.

Yep. And I have not said a lot of negative things about the Governor not looking out for gun rights here just out of decency, because he is going through so much right now. And unlike the other side we are decent and don't believe in trash talking people when they are down.

Suffice to say, things were supposed to get better, not worse, and I am disappointed.

 

[pilotguy299]

Yep. And I have not said a lot of negative things about the Governor not looking out for gun rights here just out of decency, because he is going through so much right now. And unlike the other side we are decent and don't believe in trash talking people when they are down.

Suffice to say, things were supposed to get better, not worse, and I am disappointed.

I am a bit disappointed as well. But I also realize that positive and sustainable change doesn't generally happen quickly. Things that change quickly, can generally be undone just as quickly.

A mindset change by the MDSP is very likely not going to happen overnight. After years of things being one way, it's going to take time for them to understand and buy in to another way of thinking.

Old dogs can learn new tricks. It just takes them longer to do so.

 

[zoostation]

No, 1911 builds are tough. Definitely not a DIY gun unless you really know what you're doing. If you want to build a pistol, an AR pistol would be far easier.

This. 1911's from 80 percent are not a good idea for most people. You really need a background in machining as well as firearms. Remember you are building an old design that relies on some rather sensitive traditional positive mechanisms to keep the gun from firing once cocked.

I've been working on guns for quite a long time and am also a factory certified Colt AR platform armorer. And I don't work on my own 1911's. When I needed an ambi safety put on my latest Combat Elite I took it to John at Duffy's and had him do it. It's worth it to me for the peace of mind to know a part that critical and sensitive was done by an expert.

 

[SWO Daddy]

It's pretty indefensible to say a 1911 frame or the like is a regulated firearm, and hopefully MSP agrees.

Wouldnt an encore/contender frame be a better test case based on the MSP's proclivity for making decisions based on how scary something looks?

Even better, I ...know a guy who bought a barreled Mauser action post Safety Act as cash and carry (listed as "other" on the 4473).

What about an Ares SCR lower? I'm not even sure how someone could turn that into a pistol. I don't see why that wouldn't be C&C...

 

[Gunslinger669]

Nobody is trying to kid anyone, that's what you seem to keep missing. You're inventing a law when there isn't one. The "intent" is irrelevant. And its good you joined here for the right reasons. So let's not start by jumping in and casting insinuations about other people's motives for disagreeing with you, which is exactly what you did.

Thanks for the judgement- and I insinuated nothing- you merely interpreted my intent incorrectly.
Lol

 

[pcfixer]

This. 1911's from 80 percent are not a good idea for most people. You really need a background in machining as well as firearms. Remember you are building an old design that relies on some rather sensitive traditional positive mechanisms to keep the gun from firing once cocked.

I've been working on guns for quite a long time and am also a factory certified Colt AR platform armorer. And I don't work on my own 1911's. When I needed an ambi safety put on my latest Combat Elite I took it to John at Duffy's and had him do it. It's worth it to me for the peace of mind to know a part that critical and sensitive was done by an expert.

Very smart man, glad you posted this. I've learned this the hard way too.
I know my way around a CNC, shot guns, rifles, AR's and pistols.
I usually will not do more than tear down cleaning or some stock repairs.
Other than that I go to a well known gunsmith.

From above, the intent of a 80% lower weather AR or 1911 is build for personal use and not for resale. That is allowed under the GCA.

The GCA does not prohibit the manufacture of a firearm by an unlicensed person for his or her personal use. ATF has long recognized this right, most recently in questions and answers on unfinished receivers posted on its website on October 23, 2014 (“Receiver Blanks Q&A’s”), see for example question 9. Firearms manufactured by an individual for personal use are not subject to the marking requirements of the law, and ATF has expressed concern over its inability to trace such firearms if they are recovered by Federal, State, or local law enforcement agencies. See questions 6 and 7 in the Receiver Blanks Q&A’s on ATF’s website.

Read more: http://www.ammoland.com/2015/01/atf...-go-after-home-made-gun-makers/#ixzz3h271ewrX
http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=dN1xeGz_Wr4A0Kacwqm_6l&u=Ammoland
​

 

[zoostation]

Thanks for the judgement- and I insinuated nothing- you merely interpreted my intent incorrectly.
Lol

Fine. When gentle correction does not work, quiet reflection for 90 days may. See you in October.

 

[BradMacc82]

Fine. When gentle correction does not work, quiet reflection for 90 days may. See you in October.

This place really needs a "Like" button at times.

 

[Biggfoot44]

It's not discussed as frequently at present as was +/- 2yrs ago , but there are a number of people who refuse on Principle to get an HQL. I should know , I'm one of them. Thanks to a DC letter and liquidating some retirement funds I endevored to fill any gaps of recent mfg.handguns, and did pretty good at it. Sure one can always use more beater Blackhawks for eventual project guns , but I probably bought more pre- 10/01 than I otherwise would have in my lifetime at my usual pace.

But back quasi on topic - I would enjoy to buy complete Glock/ 1911/ XD/ etc lower for the specific purpose of a pistol cal carbine ( substitute Form 1 SBR for those inclined ) .