Ammunition against the ammunition encoding bill

MDHunter · Feb 21, 2008

"Expert Testimony" from Washington

Do we need to provide some of the reasonable delegates with some sample questions, that might help to reveal the motive behind the expert's testimony? A few questions along the lines of

"What personal, business or financial gain might you realize by passage of this bill?"

"Has this technology been tested on bullets, i.e., how do you propose to maintain legible markings on hollow point ammo, which is designed to shatter into many pieces upon contact?"

etc etc

Is that advisable?

MDHunter · Feb 21, 2008

Does This Help Us?

Posting part of a thread from THR - did anyone hear this interview on Cam & Company:

I listened to an interview last night on Cam & Company NRA News (still available until tonight at nra.org) & the guy who has applied for the patent does not even know how it would be implemented - he said he would leave that up to "the experts" to determine although he already applied for a patent & plans to charge a per round licensing fee. Incredible.

If this is accurate - how might this help?

Norton · Feb 21, 2008

I would say that a good tack to take would be to email some of those things to our friends on the committee to help them to understand your concerns.

Hows about:

Dear Delegate:

My understanding is that the proponents of HB517 intend to bring as expert witnesses ...........

I'm astonished to see that the very people who stand to profit from the passage of this bill are being allowed to testify as the expert witnesses on an unproven.......

If i were allowed to cross examine these profit mongering whores (well, you might want to temper that part) i would want to know.......

MDHunter · Feb 21, 2008

Good Tactic...

Norton said:
I would say that a good tack to take would be to email some of those things to our friends on the committee to help them to understand your concerns.

Hows about:

Dear Delegate:

My understanding is that the proponents of HB517 intend to bring as expert witnesses ...........

I'm astonished to see that the very people who stand to profit from the passage of this bill are being allowed to testify as the expert witnesses on an unproven.......

If i were allowed to cross examine these profit mongering whores (well, you might want to temper that part) i would want to know.......

OK - I'll draft an email that includes sample questions, and post it here to get comments (and possible additional questions) later this evening. I'll also do a double-check with others here to make sure I send it ONLY to our allies on the committee.

Michael

MDHunter · Feb 21, 2008

Friends - Am I Missing Anyone?

OK - I'm gonna scratch the idea of posting the email here, but will send it to our friend on the Committee - I was planning on sending to Dwyer, McComas, and Jennings, am I missing anyone?

Michael

Norton · Feb 21, 2008

MDHunter said:
OK - I'm gonna scratch the idea of posting the email here, but will send it to our friend on the Committee - I was planning on sending to Dwyer, McComas, and Jennings, am I missing anyone?

Michael

Kelley, Smigiel, McConkey

Jim Sr · Feb 23, 2008

House Bill 517
2008 Session | FISCAL AND POLICY NOTE :shocked2:

{snip}
State Effect: None at this time. There are no manufacturers currently known to produce or sell “encoded ammunition.” State revenues and expenditures would not be immediately affected.

Small Business Effect:
There are no ammunition manufacturers in the State, but any retail business may sell ammunition in the State. The Comptroller estimates that there are sales of more than $9 million for all types of ammunition sold in the State annually. Under this bill, any retailer in Maryland currently engaged in ammunition sales, or who contemplates future sales, would be limited to ammunition sales for regulated firearms exempted under the bill. DLS believes that ammunition for shotguns accounts for at least 50% of all sales statewide, but as much as two-thirds in some jurisdictions. Accordingly, this bill could significantly negatively impact sales revenue of some retailers – primarily gun shops, sporting goods stores, and department stores.
{/snip}
ALL FULL FISCAL AND POLICY NOTE MUST READ!

novus collectus · Feb 23, 2008

There are no ammunition manufacturers in the State

They are wrong. http://www.qual-cart.com/

Jaybeez · Feb 23, 2008

I was under the impression that these guys manufactured ammo, but their site says they dont.
http://www.hpwhite.com/

Lockhead Martin is in MD, i think they make make ammo and munitions too, its intended for military, but there is no exemption for manufacturers in this Bill, just an exemption for LEO and Military purchases.

These guys appear to make ammo too:
http://www.aaicorp.com/
Ammo and mortar shells, may not be for civilains, but mortars would be regulated firearms right? They would need to be encoded if made in maryland, right? I think they are a subsidiary of Remington arms.

http://http://www.aaicorp.com/New/Advancedprograms/html/lightweight_small_arms.html

Someone says these guys in baltimore make ammo:
http://www.armscorpusa.com/

General Dynamics makes a whole lot of stuff too, they have 2 locations in md, with 100 jobs in carrol county.
http://www.gdc4s.com/index.cfm

If anyone knows anything more about these places please chime in.

HangFire · Feb 23, 2008

State and local governments cannot tax federal contracts. When the town of New Haven tried to tax Olin/Winchester, it immediately split itself up into US Repeating Arms (taxable) and the federal ammo business (non-taxable), and moved non-fed-contract (commercial) ammo manufacturing out to other plants.

GDC4s does not have 100 jobs in Carroll County. GDRS has over 400 jobs in Carroll County. They make robots, not munitions. http://www.gdrs.com

AAI is not a subsidiary of Remington. That is a bizarre assertion. Remington is currently privately held since 2007, purchased from another private equity firm who bought it in 1993. AAI is a subsidiary to Textron.

Armscorp in Maryland makes an M14/M1A clone, and should not be confused with Armscor, who imported Philippine made guns and branded ammunition at one time.

http://www.armscorpusa.com/
http://www.armscor.com.ph/

HP White was, and is, a premier pressure testing laboratory. They do not manufacture ammunition for any market.

-HF

ChannelCat · Feb 24, 2008

Anyone Know of any 30-06 Chambered Regulated Firearms?

I’m trying to get off of work to attend the hearing on Tuesday, and, in any event, I’m building my case against the bill. In addition to the financial angle (citing Canada’s $2billion registry and Maryland’s multi million dollar ballistic fingerprinting scheme) I’m taking the “unintended consequences” tact.

I’m citing other “sporting and competitive shooting” rifles that will be affected. I’ve found oodles of “regulated” rifles in .308, which will adversely affect the no-so-threatening looking and ubiquitous Remington 700, but at first glance, I can’t find any in 30-06. I’m going to keep looking, but can someone here tell me of any rifles on the “regulated” list in 30-06? I also want to build a case that it will affect competitive shooting of the legendary M1 Garand. Thanks!

novus collectus · Feb 24, 2008

ChannelCat said:
I’m trying to get off of work to attend the hearing on Tuesday, and, in any event, I’m building my case against the bill. In addition to the financial angle (citing Canada’s $2billion registry and Maryland’s multi million dollar ballistic fingerprinting scheme) I’m taking the “unintended consequences” tact.

I’m citing other “sporting and competitive shooting” rifles that will be affected. I’ve found oodles of “regulated” rifles in .308, which will adversely affect the no-so-threatening looking and ubiquitous Remington 700, but at first glance, I can’t find any in 30-06. I’m going to keep looking, but can someone here tell me of any rifles on the “regulated” list in 30-06? I also want to build a case that it will affect competitive shooting of the legendary M1 Garand. Thanks!

If all Saigas are regulated, then they have a 30-06 version. http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_100.htm

Also Thomspn Contender Encore pistols also come in 30-06 and numerous rifle calibers like 45-70. The Maryland handgun lists the Encore in ALL calibers, so the 30-06 version is on the list.

ChannelCat · Feb 25, 2008

novus collectus said:
If all Saigas are regulated, then they have a 30-06 version. http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_100.htm

Also Thomspn Contender Encore pistols also come in 30-06 and numerous rifle calibers like 45-70. The Maryland handgun lists the Encore in ALL calibers, so the 30-06 version is on the list.

Thanks a bunch for the great information!! The first piece that I thought of was a semi auto version of a BAR, if there is even such an animal. Now if only I can get a "get out of jail free" card for Tuesday...

Norton · Feb 27, 2008

Here's the actual patent for the ACS:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...ND&d=PTXT&s1=07143697&OS=07143697&RS=07143697

ewingja1 · Feb 27, 2008

Use this link to fight HB517 - Contact your representative today

http://mlis.state.md.us/mgaweb/mail32.aspx

Falkus · Feb 27, 2008

Nice Big Post and Welcome to MD shooters ...

novus collectus · Feb 27, 2008

ewingja1 said:
http://mlis.state.md.us/mgaweb/mail32.aspx

Welcome to MDShooters.

epc3762 · Feb 27, 2008

ewingja1 said:
http://mlis.state.md.us/mgaweb/mail32.aspx

Awesome post and WELCOME!

Norton · Feb 28, 2008

Hey folks,

It just occurred to me that HB517 is still technically pending before the Ways and Means Committee.

Could it be that Tuesday was a diversion so that they could ram it through Ways and Means?

I have reservations about thinking so for a couple of reasons:

1) While the tax part of the bill qualifies it as a Ways and Means subject, the serialization part is under the purvey of Judicial, which will apparently be putting it "in the drawer".
2). It would be a major slap in the face to Vallario to take it up in Ways and Means.
3). We could hammer Burns massively because he stated, "This is not a tax" several times during Tuesday's testimony.

I don't trust 'em a bit to try and pull a fast one on us.

Jim Sr · Mar 1, 2008

HOUSE BILL 517
http://mlis.state.md.us/2008rs/billfile/hb0517.htm
Regulated Firearms _ Encoded Ammunition _ Tax
Senate Action: No Action
Synopsis: Authorizing a person to sell ammunition for a regulated firearm on or after January 1, 2009, only in accordance with the Act; requiring an ammunition manufacturer to encode ammunition for a regulated firearm in a specified way; requiring the Secretary of State Police beginning on January 1, 2009, to establish and maintain an encoded ammunition database; imposing a tax of 5 cents per round on the sale of encoded ammunition beginning on January 1, 2009; etc.
http://mlis.state.md.us/2008RS/bills/hb/hb0517f.pdf http://mlis.state.md.us/2008RS/fnotes/bil_0007/hb0517.pdf
Amendments: None offered
Heard: February 26 (Judiciary)

Failed Legislation / 2008
Status as of March 3, 2008: Bill is in the House - Unfavorable Judiciary
http://mlis.state.md.us/2008rs/subjects/weapons.htm

Ammunition against the ammunition encoding bill

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