HPRB August 4, 2015 Meeting Thread

Blacksmith101 said:

Can't see the forest for the trees. Don't you love auto spell?

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I am going to guess he meant "invested".

Adding my two cents worth. After attending my 4th actual meeting of the HGPRB (5th was cancelled), I am happy to report marked improvements in the facilities at which the meetings are now held, that the Board (new members and prior members) are more aware of their OMA obligations, that they seem (?) to be considering each applicant's appeal with open minds, and after last night that Mr. Neverdon's participation seems intended to facilitate rather than hamper the proceedings.

I realize that the process is far from perfect, and that issues remain whether the OMA is being properly interpreted and applied, but the environment is already far better than just two months ago. Yes there is still a long way to go, but there has been progress, and I chalk that up to the people that have been able to attend whether just once (or several times) to create a public presence. There can be no doubt that the lack of public attendance and scrutiny, perhaps fueled by a prior sense of hopelessness, allowed non-compliant conduct and procedures during the HGPRB's prior meetings over many years. Whether that hopelessness may rightfully be replaced by optimism is yet to be seen.

For applicants appealing, please request a "hearing" so that you may attend and represent your position. If you don't, please at least submit a cogent written statement of your position and argument to be read by the Board during your "review." Otherwise, all the Board gets is another inappropriate, uncontested, overdose of outdated Snowden and Scherr served up by the MSP, along with whatever you previously submitted to MSP with your application. That leaves MSP with the edge, even though they should have the burden.

Simply put, do yourselves a favor. Attend a meeting just to see what happens (its eye opening), request a "hearing" when the time comes, and submit whatever supplemental information may have arisen since your application was first submitted.

Kudos to those attending (or even just listening in) and pressing to regain our misappropriated fundamental right to self-defense.

Blacksmith101 said:

Can't see the forest for the trees. Don't you love auto spell?

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Friggin auto fill.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

Other than what has already been posted, I don't have much to add. During the "closed" portion of the meeting, a few of us had a chance to speak with Mr. Neverdon. It does seem to me that he sees eye-to-eye with "us" more than I would have ever thought. When exiting for the evening, Mr. Neverdon and I were the last out and I got to hear "the rest of the story" of his "come to Jesus" moment. The short version was brought up at the "closed" session. Drastic changes have been made and more are expected... Progress.
My Mom had asked if she could tag along to the meeting. Heck yea!... the more the merrier... Although the meeting did not last long, she enjoyed seeing the process and hearing the "then" and "now" versions of the meetings. She told me after the meeting closed that I should tell the people there about MDS... she soon found out the we were ALL from MDS...

Good on you and her for coming out, caring, and witnessing the process. Maybe we should start a "junior chapter" and LCPIWB can just bring his kids next meeting Start them early so to speak!

The "MDS.HGRB.RB" (MDS review board of the HGRB) seems to have really helped this very small part of our government actually realize how to run efficiently and effectively (maybe effectively), many thanks to you good citizens.

This would make one wonder how ineffectively many other parts of the government are run and are possibly just staffed by people there to get 40 hrs in. By human nature I am sure the individuals would like and possibly enjoy efficiency but the path has not been shown to them as with the situation that we get to watch unfold here.
Great citizens at work story here ... I hope there is a happy ending!

I think as long as we remain calm and respectful and not turn the meetings into a circus we can "eat the elephant" one bite at a time. Each meeting seems to bring more progress and reform. We seem to be advancing steadily, one step at a time.

BeoBill said:

I think as long as we remain calm and respectful and not turn the meetings into a circus we can "eat the elephant" one bite at a time. Each meeting seems to bring more progress and reform. We seem to be advancing steadily, one step at a time.

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My thoughts exactly. Form is very important for transparency and we are seeing improvements. However, form over substance creates paralysis and then little gets accomplished.

BeoBill said:

I think as long as we remain calm and respectful and not turn the meetings into a circus we can "eat the elephant" one bite at a time. Each meeting seems to bring more progress and reform. We seem to be advancing steadily, one step at a time.

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I agree. We have the calm and respectful approach covered and we also have the "habitual line stepper" approach covered too.

I see the frustration of the chair growing each week. Last night he wanted to start the meeting immediately at 6pm, when we were literally writing on the sign in sheet. Mr. Neverdon stopped him and made him wait 2 minutes. Next meeting, I am sure we will be granted access 5-10 minutes early and be able to settle in.

Mr. Thomas also questioned my laptop and iPad and Mr. Neverdon said it was fine.

Mr. Thomas is openly and visually put off by the progress. He, being the senior member of the board AND the chair, is deferring to MR. Wilson, Mr. Jugena and Mr. Neverdon as to how to proceed.

This is all so damn awesome. I would have liked to be there last night, but can't thank all the attendees enough for filling everyone in.

I'm utterly delighted when someone is openly and visually "put off" by something, makes my day.

Good work guys.

Is S&S the concrete rule of thumb? If this is not the correct rule then is there a way to get it noticed or just the same time frame as a lawsuit to hope a case is brought up that might mention it? I am trying to be positive.

ironpony said:

Is S&S the concrete rule of thumb? If this is not the correct rule then is there a way to get it noticed or just the same time frame as a lawsuit to hope a case is brought up that might mention it? I am trying to be positive.

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The admin from the HPRB and the MSP look to the AG's office for legal interpretations. What do you think Frosh would say. I have an idea of an approach I will use, but it is not guaranteed to work. If they want to read into S&S, then they must as least look at what Woollard says. If not, they are the ones cherry picking and the board does not have to cherry pick. As long as you bring proof and explain your point to the board, they should be able to understand.

Anyone with access to any board members who can send the explanation of palpable need, should do so with a personal note of thanks and gratitude for their efforts to correct the process.

The Hogan administration has no patience with the old style of conducting business with the citizens. As an example, I voiced a concern to the newly appointed Business Ombudsman,(A Cabinet Position) Roger Campos, in reference to the MVA conducting the standard Ishihara color blind test for CDL drivers when the federal regulations only require the ability to differentiate between red, green and amber as used in traffic signals. Never mind the fact that the driver is required to have a current Medical Examiner's Certificate which is issued by a trained, certified and registered doctor. This physical includes a color blind test, so the MVA is testing for something that has already been tested.

When Mr. Campos asked the MVA Administrator to look into this, I received a response back from a Deputy Administrator stating that he had been asked to respond for the Administrator. At the end of the letter, I was told to contact yet a lower Special Projects Manager if I had any other concerns. That's three levels of buck passing.

I wrote back to Mr. Campos, thanking him for his input, but as expected, I received the normal song and dance response.

I just received the following email from Mr. Campos,

Wayne,
We will be addressing their "passing of the buck" issue with the Administrator.
Roger

Having met Roger face to face, I can assure you, he is not smiling.

ironpony said:

Is S&S the concrete rule of thumb? If this is not the correct rule then is there a way to get it noticed or just the same time frame as a lawsuit to hope a case is brought up that might mention it? I am trying to be positive.

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If my reading is correct, there are a couple of lawyers around here that have a really good handle on the S&S issue and it no longer applying. At least one of them has an application in that may well end up before the board and I suspect he would give a full account of the difference when his time comes. The other one, IIRC has written a letter to MSP explaining in easy to understand detail why they should no longer use the S&S standard.
Hopefully something will come of one, or both of those efforts.

navycraig said:

If my reading is correct, there are a couple of lawyers around here that have a really good handle on the S&S issue and it no longer applying. At least one of them has an application in that may well end up before the board and I suspect he would give a full account of the difference when his time comes. The other one, IIRC has written a letter to MSP explaining in easy to understand detail why they should no longer use the S&S standard.
Hopefully something will come of one, or both of those efforts.

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ironpony said:

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That meeting should be well attended. Maybe we should sell tickets?

Gryphon said:

I realize that the process is far from perfect, and that issues remain whether the OMA is being properly interpreted and applied, but the environment is already far better than just two months ago. Yes there is still a long way to go, but there has been progress, and I chalk that up to the people that have been able to attend whether just once (or several times) to create a public presence. There can be no doubt that the lack of public attendance and scrutiny, perhaps fueled by a prior sense of hopelessness, allowed non-compliant conduct and procedures during the HGPRB's prior meetings over many years. Whether that hopelessness may rightfully be replaced by optimism is yet to be seen.

Kudos to those attending (or even just listening in) and pressing to regain our misappropriated fundamental right to self-defense.

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Plan to keep on going if I can. However going to Japan for five weeks from the middle of September. So probably can only make it two more meetings, and then off until November.

Gryphon said:

Good on you and her for coming out, caring, and witnessing the process. Maybe we should start a "junior chapter" and LCPIWB can just bring his kids next meeting Start them early so to speak!

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LCPIWB Jr. still learning to crawl, and he will be on a plane for Japan on Sunday. Having said that the next two meetings I can hang around late for the after party.

DC-W said:

This is all so damn awesome. I would have liked to be there last night, but can't thank all the attendees enough for filling everyone in.

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^^^^
This

Thank you guys. You are on a most worthy mission and doing good things.

Can't wait till the clean ones with palpable need cycle through!

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Straightshooter said:

The Hogan administration has no patience with the old style of conducting business with the citizens. As an example, I voiced a concern to the newly appointed Business Ombudsman,(A Cabinet Position) Roger Campos, in reference to the MVA conducting the standard Ishihara color blind test for CDL drivers when the federal regulations only require the ability to differentiate between red, green and amber as used in traffic signals. Never mind the fact that the driver is required to have a current Medical Examiner's Certificate which is issued by a trained, certified and registered doctor. This physical includes a color blind test, so the MVA is testing for something that has already been tested.

When Mr. Campos asked the MVA Administrator to look into this, I received a response back from a Deputy Administrator stating that he had been asked to respond for the Administrator. At the end of the letter, I was told to contact yet a lower Special Projects Manager if I had any other concerns. That's three levels of buck passing.

I wrote back to Mr. Campos, thanking him for his input, but as expected, I received the normal song and dance response.

I just received the following email from Mr. Campos,

Wayne,
We will be addressing their "passing of the buck" issue with the Administrator.
Roger

Having met Roger face to face, I can assure you, he is not smiling.

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Good story. Now if we can only get Governor Hogan and his staff to be as interested in fundamental rights as the shenanigans at the MVA, perhaps he will stop the MSP from passing the buck to the HGPRB . . .