So much for brief introductions ... a noob with questions ...

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  • fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    Greetings, I'm a Frederick area resident but originally from the Midwest. My parents didn't have firearms, but many of our friends did and were avid hunters. My interest in shooting was renewed in the past two years.

    Recently, I purchased my first handgun and discovered the MDShooters site through the excellent sticky on Range Etiquette and Safety that Google found for me and have been using this website to find information on nearby ranges to potentially visit as well as other firearm and 2A (and MSI) information.

    For any one patient enough and experienced with the transport of handguns or rifles in MD, I have a few questions … all mostly yes/no …

    1) on the way to a shooting range, is one permitted to pick up a friend who is joining and possibly bringing his own firearm (and then drop him off afterwards)?

    2) for friends that have property with space to shoot (e.g. those with farms or significant wooded acreage with safe areas to shoot with backstops), can I take my firearms if invited for target practice on their private property?
    Just wondering how to address this if ever pulled over by an LEO (as i think it is important to tell them that there is a weapon in the trunk).

    3) if the answer to (2) is correct, if a friend gives permission to bring the firearm to his home (e.g. clean and/or disassemble firearms for the afternoon), can I take my handgun with me even if I am not going to a range or place to shoot?

    4) are we allowed to lend firearms to friends who pick them up to go shooting at a range (and they are over 21, have a clean record, possibly are registered gun owners, etc)?
    This question is more hypothetical than the rest, just wondering what the regs are if the situation arises. Even if allowed, I would still be concerned about potential liabilities.

    5) is my wife allowed to take my registered weapon to range or training class without me accompanying her? Our youngest boy is less than a year, so we don't have a sitter for him yet, and If the wife was to take a gun safety, I would be taking care of the little guy.

    6) finally, if I wanted to go to an out of state shooting range in VA (Silver Eagle) or WV (340 Defense), am I allowed to cross state lines with my handgun? I will likely first go to Cresap in Frederick, and possibly join the Izaak Walton league up here (and Hap Baker isn't too far either) … however, the websites for 340 Defense and Silver Eagle both make the places look appealing.

    For all the above, I will put the unloaded firearm in a locked case in the car trunk, and ammunition in another part of the car (e.g. back seat) in a closed container or zipped bag. As I understand it, it is ok to transport loaded magazines with the ammo, as this would save time at the range. If the second amendment were correctly interpreted (which means open carry throughout the US in my opinion), many of the above questions would be moot. However, I don't want to run afoul of how the laws in the state of MD are currently enforced, so am keen to avoid mistakes.

    Btw, thanks to the many people who continue to give advice on this site.:bowdown: A comment that you perhaps put down two years (e.g. advising on a safety matter or suggesting to new handgun owners to get snap caps, which I did) will actually get read by someone new combing the site looking for background information … a really invaluable service to the community at large … moreover the sincere enthusiasm in the posts makes this a fun site to visit. I can see why the readership is loyal and continues to grow.
     
    Last edited:

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,443
    Carroll County
    For any one patient enough and experienced with the transport of handguns or rifles in MD, I have a few questions … all mostly yes/no …

    1) on the way to a shooting range, is one permitted to pick up a friend who is joining and possibly bringing his own firearm (and then drop him off afterwards)?

    2) for friends that have property with space to shoot (e.g. those with farms or significant wooded acreage with safe areas to shoot with backstops), can I take my firearms if invited for target practice on their private property?
    Just wondering how to address this if ever pulled over by an LEO (as i think it is important to tell them that there is a weapon in the trunk).

    3) if the answer to (2) is correct, if a friend gives permission to bring the firearm to his home (e.g. clean and/or disassemble firearms for the afternoon), can I take my handgun with me even if I am not going to a range or place to shoot?

    4) are we allowed to lend firearms to friends who pick them up to go shooting at a range (and they are over 21, have a clean record, possibly are registered gun owners, etc)?
    This question is more hypothetical than the rest, just wondering what the regs are if the situation arises. Even if allowed, I would still be concerned about potential liabilities.

    5) is my wife allowed to take my registered weapon to range or training class without me accompanying her? Our youngest boy is less than a year, so we don't have a sitter for him yet, and If the wife was to take a gun safety, I would be taking care of the little guy.

    6) finally, if I wanted to go to an out of state shooting range in VA (Silver Eagle) or WV (340 Defense), am I allowed to cross state lines with my handgun? I will likely first go to Cresap in Frederick, and possibly join the Izaak Walton league up here (and Hap Baker isn't too far either) … however, the websites for 340 Defense and Silver Eagle both make the places look appealing.

    For all the above, I will put the unloaded firearm in a locked case in the car trunk, and ammunition in another part of the car (e.g. back seat) in a closed container or zipped bag. As I understand it, it is ok to transport loaded magazines with the ammo, as this would save time at the range. If the second amendment were correctly interpreted (which means open carry throughout the US in my opinion), many of the above questions would be moot. However, I don't want to run afoul of how the laws in the state of MD are currently enforced, so am keen to avoid mistakes.

    Btw, thanks to the many people who continue to give advice on this site.:bowdown: A comment that you perhaps put down two years (e.g. advising on a safety matter or suggesting to new handgun owners to get snap caps, which I did) will actually get read by someone new combing the site looking for background information … a really invaluable service to the community at large … moreover the sincere enthusiasm in the posts makes this a fun site to visit. I can see why the readership is loyal and continues to grow.


    Wow. Why do I do this to myself? Ok.


    Maryland's laws are not as black/white open and shut as many seem to think or expect them to be. There is confusion. There are gray areas. Don't count on the policeman who pulls you over to be an expert on transport laws.

    It's best not to be pulled over. If you are, do not volunteer that you have a gun in the trunk. Why would you do that? Just relax, take your ticket if you get one, and go on about your lawful business.


    Ok, that said,

    1) Pick up a friend on the way to the range: Well you just jumped right into a gray area. Many will tell you that when transporting a handgun to the range, you may not deviate from the most direct route. Some will claim you are forbidden to stop for gas. Maryland law does not say that. I believe Pennsylvania is specific on that point, I know New Jersey is, but Maryland does not say you may not deviate from a direct route. It ain't there in the law, folks.

    But you may indeed be in a gray area if you do deviate significantly. Also, the burden is on you, I believe, to prove that you are transporting within the allowed restrictions. So in the unlikely event that you are arrested, the best thing is to SHUT UP and let your LAWYER argue your case.

    In this instance, as in many others, There is no right or wrong answer, only good or bad arguments. And you want a lawyer making the argument. (Which is why you do not unnecessarily volunteer to the policeman that you have a pistol in the trunk.)

    So my short answer is: there is no definite yes/no answer to #1. How far out of the way is it to pick up your friend? How likely is it that the question will arise? How comfortable are you with the argument that you are transporting within the law?

    2) Shooting on private property. Easy. The law says "formal or informal target practice." Shooting out back of your buddy's barn is just as valid as shooting at Hap Baker. That's assuming the location is otherwise legal- far enough away from houses, etc.

    3) Is a little more vague. It's more clear cut if you can argue that you're going for informal target practice, or dog obedience training. The law does not provide for your just taking the handgun over to your friend's house.

    However, if you feel comfortable arguing that you are a "Bona Fide Collector", you may transport all or part of your collection for public or private display. Now we're back in never-never land. What is a Bona Fide collector? It is not defined in the law.

    There is no right or wrong answer, only good or bad arguments.

    You want to build an argument that you are a Bona Fide collector. Your argument might include:

    -- Status as a Maryland Designated Collector.

    -- Possession of a Federal Firearms License (03) Collector of Curios and Relics

    -- Membership and participation in formal collecting organizations.

    -- Demonstrating that you are known and recognized as a collector by your peers within the collecting community.

    -- Demonstrating that you invest time and money in the pursuit of collecting activities.

    -- Having a big stack of back issues of Shotgun News.

    -- Computer logs showing you waste huge amounts of time on MarylandShooters and GunBoards.

    -- Publishing collector-related articles in peer reviewed journals.



    Once again, it is really best that the question never comes up. No matter what, the best case still puts the burden of proof on you to prove, possibly in court, that you are transporting within the law. And the law is not clear or precise. The law is vague and poorly defined.

    The point is, the law doesn't specify "cleaning guns at your buddy's" house. I think your only argument is the Bona Fide Collector exemption, and it is up to you to tell the judge what that means, and why it applies to you.

    Still think it's a good idea to tell that LEO about the pistol in your trunk?

    4) Lending handguns. Surprisingly, it is my understanding that this is legal. I assume you need to reasonably believe that the other person is not Prohibited from possessing a handgun.

    5) Lending the gun to your wife. Yes, no problem, as long as you reasonably believe that she is not Prohibited from possessing a handgun. How well do you know her?

    By the way, Maryland does not technically Register handguns (yes, the word does appear on the paperwork). Maryland maintains a database of transfers, but that's not absolutely the equivalent of a registry.

    6) Transporting across state lines. No problem. I transported a pistol to Pennsylvania two weeks ago for a "formal target competition", and 3/4 of the people there were from Maryland.
    When you cross state lines, I believe the gun indeed has to be in a separate compartment, inaccessible: that is, locked in the trunk, in a case, with ammo separate. Perhaps surprisingly, by the letter of Maryland law, the encased and unloaded pistol doesn't actually have to be in the trunk, but I believe it does when you cross state lines.





    By the way, I am not a lawyer. I'm just a "dog on the internet", albeit one with a fairly high post count who has read a lot of Esqappelate's posts.
     

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    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    Wow. Why do I do this to myself? Ok.


    Maryland's laws are not as black/white open and shut as many seem to think or expect them to be. There is confusion. There are gray areas. Don't count on the policeman who pulls you over to be an expert on transport laws.

    ...

    By the way, I am not a lawyer. I'm just a "dog on the internet", albeit one with a fairly high post count who has read a lot of Esquappelate's posts.

    Thanks much for the follow up ... and one of my favorite cartoons. It's the lack of specificity in the transport laws that I found confusing, but as you noted, it may allow flexibility as well. I'll take the advice of what to do if pulled over, which happens perhaps once a decade. Great to know regarding questions (1), (2), and (5) ... this was what I felt would be reasonable. As per (3), given that I am not likely to be confused as a collector (but give me a few years, I have a big list :) ), I simply won't explore the legality ... although most of my buddies to have dogs ... and I neglected the dog training angle. Number (4) surprises me ... but there are scenarios where I think that I might be asked and can't go because it's my turn with the kids. Finally your answer to number (6) is excellent and what I hoped. Both Silver Eagle and 340 Defense look pretty cool and I would love to cross state lines to check them out.
     
    Last edited:

    Dave MP

    Retired USA
    Jun 13, 2010
    10,618
    Farmland, PA
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    hvymax

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Apr 19, 2010
    14,011
    Dentsville District 28
    Hidey Ho from SMIBville. Get your designated collector status from MSP and you can transport for "private display anywhere it is legal to have a gun. Settle in with some sweet lemonade(official beverage) and enjoy the show.
     

    Mdeng

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Nov 13, 2009
    8,574
    Virginia
    Wow. Why do I do this to myself? Ok.


    Maryland's laws are not as black/white open and shut as many seem to think or expect them to be. There is confusion. There are gray areas. Don't count on the policeman who pulls you over to be an expert on transport laws.

    It's best not to be pulled over. If you are, do not volunteer that you have a gun in the trunk. Why would you do that? Just relax, take your ticket if you get one, and go on about your lawful business.


    Ok, that said,

    1) Pick up a friend on the way to the range: Well you just jumped right into a gray area. Many will tell you that when transporting a handgun to the range, you may not deviate from the most direct route. Some will claim you are forbidden to stop for gas. Maryland law does not say that. I believe Pennsylvania is specific on that point, I know New Jersey is, but Maryland does not say you may not deviate from a direct route. It ain't there in the law, folks.

    But you may indeed be in a gray area if you do deviate significantly. Also, the burden is on you, I believe, to prove that you are transporting within the allowed restrictions. So in the unlikely event that you are arrested, the best thing is to SHUT UP and let your LAWYER argue your case.

    In this instance, as in many others, There is no right or wrong answer, only good or bad arguments. And you want a lawyer making the argument. (Which is why you do not unnecessarily volunteer to the policeman that you have a pistol in the trunk.)

    So my short answer is: there is no definite yes/no answer to #1. How far out of the way is it to pick up your friend? How likely is it that the question will arise? How comfortable are you with the argument that you are transporting within the law?

    2) Shooting on private property. Easy. The law says "formal or informal target practice." Shooting out back of your buddy's barn is just as valid as shooting at Hap Baker. That's assuming the location is otherwise legal- far enough away from houses, etc.

    3) Is a little more vague. It's more clear cut if you can argue that you're going for informal target practice, or dog obedience training. The law does not provide for your just taking the handgun over to your friend's house.

    However, if you feel comfortable arguing that you are a "Bona Fide Collector", you may transport all or part of your collection for public or private display. Now we're back in never-never land. What is a Bona Fide collector? It is not defined in the law.

    There is no right or wrong answer, only good or bad arguments.

    You want to build an argument that you are a Bona Fide collector. Your argument might include:

    -- Status as a Maryland Designated Collector.

    -- Possession of a Federal Firearms License (03) Collector of Curios and Relics

    -- Membership and participation in formal collecting organizations.

    -- Demonstrating that you are known and recognized as a collector by your peers within the collecting community.

    -- Demonstrating that you invest time and money in the pursuit of collecting activities.

    -- Having a big stack of back issues of Shotgun News.

    -- Computer logs showing you waste huge amounts of time on MarylandShooters and GunBoards.

    -- Publishing collector-related articles in peer reviewed journals.



    Once again, it is really best that the question never comes up. No matter what, the best case still puts the burden of proof on you to prove, possibly in court, that you are transporting within the law. And the law is not clear or precise. The law is vague and poorly defined.

    The point is, the law doesn't specify "cleaning guns at your buddy's" house. I think your only argument is the Designated Collector exemption, and it is up to you to tell the judge what that means, and why it applies to you.

    Still think it's a good idea to tell that LEO about the pistol in your trunk?

    4) Lending handguns. Surprisingly, it is my understanding that this is legal. I assume you need to reasonably believe that the other person is not Prohibited from possessing a handgun.

    5) Lending the gun to your wife. Yes, no problem, as long as you reasonably believe that she is not Prohibited from possessing a handgun. How well do you know her?

    By the way, Maryland does not technically Register handguns (yes, the word does appear on the paperwork). Maryland maintains a database of transfers, but that's not absolutely the equivalent of a registry.

    6) Transporting across state lines. No problem. I transported a pistol to Pennsylvania two weeks ago for a "formal target competition", and 3/4 of the people there were from Maryland.
    When you cross state lines, I believe the gun indeed has to be in a separate compartment, inaccessible: that is, locked in the trunk, in a case, with ammo separate. Perhaps surprisingly, by the letter of Maryland law, the encased and unloaded pistol doesn't actually have to be in the trunk, but I believe it does when you cross state lines.





    By the way, I am not a lawyer. I'm just a "dog on the internet", albeit one with a fairly high post count who has read a lot of Esqappelate's posts.

    Great Post Threeband.



    Fidelity, Welcome to the forum from Southern Maryland.

    Since you are in the Frederick area you should check into the Frederick IWLA. Make contact with Ben Kelkye there. He's a great instructor and they have one of the best youth programs in the state. If you or your son is interested in Youth Hunter Education Challenge (YHEC) they have a top notch program.

    The Frederick IWLA also offers many NRA courses.
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    Hidey Ho from SMIBville. Get your designated collector status from MSP and you can transport for "private display anywhere it is legal to have a gun. Settle in with some sweet lemonade(official beverage) and enjoy the show.

    Seeking collector status is on the list after getting some basic handgun training and finding a range that I like. I also have a long list of firearms that interest me, so will be building the collection as well. Thanks for the tip.


    Great Post Threeband.



    Fidelity, Welcome to the forum from Southern Maryland.

    Since you are in the Frederick area you should check into the Frederick IWLA. Make contact with Ben Kelkye there. He's a great instructor and they have one of the best youth programs in the state. If you or your son is interested in Youth Hunter Education Challenge (YHEC) they have a top notch program.

    The Frederick IWLA also offers many NRA courses.

    Another person in Urbana also recommended Ben Kelkye to me when I mentioned that some of my son's fellow scouts (Webelos) and their parents wanted to move past BB/pellet guns (although they do get to try .22 rifles now when attending some of the Boy scouting events). I downloaded the IWLA application earlier this week and need to inquire if the (family) rate that is quoted for 2012 is just for the remainder of 2012 or for a full year's membership. Appreciate the advice.


    Welcome from another person from Urbana. Specifically the VOU.

    Howdy neighbor; we're in the Villages as well.


    NEVER declare you have a firearm, unless asked...!

    Welcome to the forum :D

    Got it!
     

    Bikebreath

    R.I.P.
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 30, 2009
    14,836
    in the bowels of Baltimore
    Pennsylvania generally has better 2A rights for it's citizens. I have gone to shoots in PA about once a month and learned that I've been breaking the law. Here's how I learned.

    I took the NRA PPOTH (Personal Protection Outside The Home) up in PA. The topic of loaded mags in MD came up in the class and although somewhat of a gray area there is no specific law saying you can not travel with loaded mags in the car. BUT, I learned it is NOT ok to have loaded mags in your car in PA...unless you have a CCW. Having a CCW from Florida will work.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,443
    Carroll County
    ... learned it is NOT ok to have loaded mags in your car in PA...unless you have a CCW. Having a CCW from Florida will work.

    That's a very good point, and I had thought to add something on that score.

    When transporting handguns in neighboring states, having a concealed carry permit can give you valuable additional legal protection, even if you never carry concealed.

    Pennsylvania's transport laws are actually a bit stricter than Maryland's. I believe Pennsylvania is more strict about direct travel, for instance, and Bikebreath pointed out that loaded mags are illegal while transporting in PA.

    If you attend a handgun shoot in Pennsylvania, such as the monthly Steel matches at Delta, or the many matches at York IWLA, you are probably breaking the law if you stop at a restaurant or store before returning to Maryland. Even taking the scenic route home could get you in trouble.

    However, Pennsylvania recognizes many out of state non-resident carry permits as the equivalent of their own License To Carry Firearms (LTCF). Marylanders can readily get valid permits issued by Florida, Utah, Arizona, and Virginia, as well as others. Even if you only transport the unloaded pistol in the trunk of your car, having one of those permits gives you important and meaningful legal protection while transporting in Pennsylvania, and perhaps in other neighboring states as well. A Virginia Non Resident Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP) is valid in PA, as well as every other state in the area, but also will give you additional "Gun Free School Zone Act" protection within Virginia.

    (Of course, no out of state permit is valid in Maryland. Yet.)
     

    Robert

    Having Fun Yet?
    May 11, 2011
    4,089
    AA County, MD
    Wow. Why do I do this to myself? Ok.


    Maryland's laws are not as black/white open and shut as many seem to think or expect them to be. There is confusion. There are gray areas. Don't count on the policeman who pulls you over to be an expert on transport laws.

    ..SNIP...

    Cuz you a good man Charlie Brown.. :D


    Oh and welcome to the forum fidelity.
     

    Curmudgeon

    I H8 stinkbugz
    Sep 6, 2010
    333
    York, Pennsylvania
    Pennsylvania generally has better 2A rights for it's citizens. I have gone to shoots in PA about once a month and learned that I've been breaking the law. Here's how I learned.

    I took the NRA PPOTH (Personal Protection Outside The Home) up in PA. The topic of loaded mags in MD came up in the class and although somewhat of a gray area there is no specific law saying you can not travel with loaded mags in the car. BUT, I learned it is NOT ok to have loaded mags in your car in PA...unless you have a CCW. Having a CCW from Florida will work.

    That's a very good point, and I had thought to add something on that score.

    When transporting handguns in neighboring states, having a concealed carry permit can give you valuable additional legal protection, even if you never carry concealed.

    Pennsylvania's transport laws are actually a bit stricter than Maryland's. I believe Pennsylvania is more strict about direct travel, for instance, and Bikebreath pointed out that loaded mags are illegal while transporting in PA.

    If you attend a handgun shoot in Pennsylvania, such as the monthly Steel matches at Delta, or the many matches at York IWLA, you are probably breaking the law if you stop at a restaurant or store before returning to Maryland. Even taking the scenic route home could get you in trouble.

    However, Pennsylvania recognizes many out of state non-resident carry permits as the equivalent of their own License To Carry Firearms (LTCF). Marylanders can readily get valid permits issued by Florida, Utah, Arizona, and Virginia, as well as others. Even if you only transport the unloaded pistol in the trunk of your car, having one of those permits gives you important and meaningful legal protection while transporting in Pennsylvania, and perhaps in other neighboring states as well. A Virginia Non Resident Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP) is valid in PA, as well as every other state in the area, but also will give you additional "Gun Free School Zone Act" protection within Virginia.

    (Of course, no out of state permit is valid in Maryland. Yet.)



    My personal opinion (and worth every penny you paid for it) is that this is an excellent thread, and threebands post really ought to be stickie. Seriously.

    I just want to address the points I bolded, above.

    In PA it is legal to transport loaded magazines as long as the loaded magazine is designed to be detachable, and is stored in a separate compartment from the firearm.

    "Loaded." A firearm is loaded if the firing chamber, the nondetachable magazine or in the case of a revolver, any of the chambers of the cylinder contain ammunition capable of being fired. In the case of a firearm which utilizes a detachable magazine, the term shall mean a magazine suitable for use in said firearm which magazine contains such ammunition and has been inserted in the firearm or is in the same container or, where the container has multiple compartments, the same compartment thereof as the firearm.
    It's here, under "Definitions"... http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6102/definitions/

    Of course, it's certainly easy enough to be prudent, and stay "on the safe side", by transporting only unloaded mags. How hard is it to load your mags when you get to the range? I just wanted to post the actual information from the PA Uniform Firearms Act for the sake of accuracy.

    The statute that applies to the actual transport of firearms can be found here... http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes...firearms-not-to-be-carried-without-a-license/


    (b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

    ...

    (4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.

    And...

    (8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S § 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm.
    Please note that the term "firearms" within the PA UFA refers to handguns, short-barreled rifles, and short-barreled shotguns, not long guns...

    "Firearm." Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.


    Oh, right. Almost forgot. Howdy from PA!

    ;)
    .
     

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