Just got off the phone With the State Police

3rdRcn said:

five point, I have to step in and disagree with ya here bud, if you start arresting folks in the county you work in for what you just said, when the law states something totally different than your opinion, you may not have a job long. Remember your county is very pro 2A, one of the last and so are the judges. The law mentions nothing about the fact that the firearm must be in the trunk or out of reach. The laws pertaining to transportation are very explicit and if you arrest someone for not breaking the law then you are going to get yourself sued for unlawful arrest as well as unlawful detainment, both of these are severe civil rights violations. You know what the law says, which is nothing close to what you are saying and it is not up to you or any training officer to make up different wording or to alter the law, this is not in the scope of your authority or any other officers authority. You must uphold the law as it is written, not as you wish it was written. You swore an oath to this when you put that badge on, if you decide you know better then you might want to put that badge away and go into some other line of work. Not trying to flame you or anything but what you are saying is truly disturbing.

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I was afraid this was going to happen. I went on a bit of a tangent becuase the question that was posed was the word "lunge" actually the words use in the language of the law pertaining to 2A (NOVUS asked this earlier in the thread). We all know that its not but I'm making reference to the word "lunge" where it orginated in the 4th Amend. when it comes to Search and Seizure. This is why I made reference to the Chimel Ruling.

What I tried to do is related how 4A and 2A can happen based on a simple traffic stop. Please remember that I was addressing the origin of "lunge" asked by NOVUS

As Vince pointed out earlier the standard in which a police officer can make an arrest is "probable cause" not suspicion or a hunch. (Since people are misinterpreting my words, please google "probably cause" so its not my words. I know what it is but I'm getting killed here.) This standard applies NOT ONLY to just 2A but ALL laws. The police don't interpret the law nor do they argue it in court...before they can make an arrest they have to make sure that the standard is met. Also as he said before, this road cop has to answer to his supervisor, who has to answer to his supervisor all the way up to hte chief so I'm sure the checks and balances are there to avoid civil liability. Its the job of the State's Attorney to prove to the judge/jury that the crime was committed "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Its no secret that HarCo loves their guns. There are many people in the county that have a shotgun behind the front door. And you mentioned our judges, when it comes to the Metro-Balt area, I think our judges are the most conservative in the region. Still not Southern, Eastern Shore or Western MD.

coinboy said:

I will NEVER volunteer information to a police officer, ever. It just sets you up for trouble. If they see the stuff and ask, I have to tell them. I for one, would never tell an officer, "Oh, officer by the way, I am transporting three handguns, two shotguns, and a full-auto machine gun to the range." This is just begging them to search you car. What I do in my life is none of their damn business unless I am breaking the law. You also say that if a cop gets reason enough to search your car you did something really stupid. I find this hard to believe. Are you telling me there aren't ass hole cops (and some normal ones, too) out there that wont hassle you because you have legal guns in the car? I know there are, and all they need is to catch you speeding or with a busted tail light. Now you say speeding is illegal and you shouldn't do it but I bet you speed in your cruiser all the time. Everyone speeds. Should you go to jail for transporting legal guns just because some prick thinks you shouldn't have them, especially when your following the letter of the law but someones "interpretation" is different? Lawyers and judges interpret law not police officers. They are just enforcement. They are supposed to enforce laws as they are written, not make up their own policies. I never did figure out when the executive branch of our government had the right the make policies as good as law. Want a really good example? Look at the ATF's website for policies or interpretations. You will find many. Can you say police state? I think we're almost there.

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With exception to "volunteering information" I agree with everything you said 100%!!!!!!!!!!!

Boxcab said:

So the leather thong that slips over the hammer spur to retain the pistol might count? Very interesting....

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Well yes, but I am not sure about all that kinky leather thong retaining the "pistol" stuff because I don't partake.

Vince, Novus and all,

Good discussion. Can you address the pickup truck scenario? Is behind the seat "lunge area"? I often travel with the ammo in a closed box in the bed but keep the guns in the cab (behind the seat in cases or gun socks) and relatively accessible. I prefer to not put them in the bed where they would be in plain sight and possibly thrown from the vehicle during an accident.

Thanks,

Boxcab

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Like I said before, what about riding a bike or a motorcycle with a handgun? In both cases the handguns are in arms reach and since the handgun statute does not specify a different situation for cars, pickups, motorcycles or even walking, the same should apply for them all.
For the police officers that would claim because a handgun was within arms reach in a car it is illegal under the code, then they would be arbitrarily making transport by motorcycle completely illegal.

Would transporting a handgun in one of these be illegal by that thought? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Smart_Crossblade.jpg

novus collectus said:

Well yes, but I am not sure about all that kinky leather thong retaining the "pistol" stuff because I don't partake.

Like I said before, what about riding a bike or a motorcycle with a handgun? In both cases the handguns are in arms reach and since the handgun statute does not specify a different situation for cars, pickups, motorcycles or even walking, the same should apply for them all.
For the police officers that would claim because a handgun was within arms reach in a car it is illegal under the code, then they would be arbitrarily making transport by motorcycle completely illegal.

Would transporting a handgun in one of these be illegal by that thought? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Smart_Crossblade.jpg

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Boxcab and Novus...I think before we can answer that, whats the reason for transporting them in the 1st place? Novus, if he's carring them because he's moving to a new home no problem but if he just committed a robbery, problem.

OK...here's a scenario. A business owner is carrying a pistol has CCP for work and to and from work for security purposes. its 2AM hes coming from a bar and he gets locked up for DUI. Whats your call on the handgun?

Please understand I am not trying to argue but merely have a discussion on what the law says. I understand you are describing the "lunge" aspect, having a firearm within reach and out in the open is not illegal or grounds for an arrest or search. If said firearm is secured in a holster or case then it is not illegal nor is it suspicious activity as long as it is clearly in view of the officer and unloaded. How could a search or arrest be justified by having an unloaded firearm on the passenger seat in an enclosed holster or case, the law states quite clearly that this is acceptable.

I have a carry permit so none of this really applies to me but it still concerns me that this is the mindset of the guys in blue. I know we all have superiors to listen to but at some point you must also say no when they are instructing you to violate the very same constitution that you swore to uphold. Things in this state will never change if all we do is blindly follow things that we know are just plain wrong. Think of how much safer and easier your job would be if you knew the good guys out there were armed and willing to help when you get into a situation that requires it to help save your life, that officer needs assistance call means the other good guys in blue are only a few minutes away when you need them now, whereas the good guy civilian is right where you need him but is afraid to help you because he doesn't want to get arrested.

Even the military has a clause about disobeying a lawful order, does the police department not have a similar clause to keep the higher ups from abusing their authority? Knowingly violating a persons rights is bad stuff and not worth serving if thats what my superiors would ask of me. I still have my own morals and integrity to protect and I will not compromise those for any job.

I'm not saying you do and I hope I am not coming off as bashing here. That is most certainly not my intention in any way, I have a shitload of respect for you guys that are wearing a badge and putting your life on the line for the pittance you get in remuneration for doing the job you decided to do. Sorry if I'm making it seem that way and I will not post any further if it offends you or any of our other officers on this board, please just PM me and let me know and I won't continue this discussion.

fivepointstar said:

Boxcab and Novus...I think before we can answer that, whats the reason for transporting them in the 1st place? Novus, if he's carring them because he's moving to a new home no problem but if he just committed a robbery, problem.

OK...here's a scenario. A business owner is carrying a pistol has CCP for work and to and from work for security purposes. its 2AM hes coming from a bar and he gets locked up for DUI. Whats your call on the handgun?

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And if they are illegally owned or stolen, problem. I would not have a problem with an officer asking me for the serial number so he can run it and see if it was stolen, nor if he ran my arrest record during a traffic stop to make sure I am permitted to have said firearm. In regards to the guy out drinking and having his weapon with him, that is a problem. He should be arrested for DUI and have his permit revoked by the MSP as he clearly doesn't deserve it. If you are drinking then you have no business carrying a firearm, these two do not mix well at any time.

fivepointstar said:

Boxcab and Novus...I think before we can answer that, whats the reason for transporting them in the 1st place? Novus, if he's carring them because he's moving to a new home no problem but if he just committed a robbery, problem.

OK...here's a scenario. A business owner is carrying a pistol has CCP for work and to and from work for security purposes. its 2AM hes coming from a bar and he gets locked up for DUI. Whats your call on the handgun?

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Well for one thing there is only one law that would apply to the person with the handgun permit and that is carrying while intoxicated. That is a one year/$1,000 max penalty.

See, the handgun transport law, the "dangerous weapons" law and the hunting regulation pertaining to having a handgun on or in a vehicle all exclude permit holders. So as a result someone with a permit tghat is not committing an act of violence can never violate 4-101, 4-203 (in the Criminal Law Article) or the handgun portion of 10-410 (Natural Resources Article).

But I see what you are talking about. If someone without a permit coming home from work where they could legally have the handgun and were returning home with the handgun unloaded in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster, then even though they are drunk driving, they are not violating the handgun transport statute so the handgun is not an issue or pertain to the drunk driving violations.

3rdRcn said:

If you are drinking then you have no business carrying a firearm, these two do not mix well at any time.

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http://www.marylandaccidentlawblog.com/2008/05/family_of_baltimore_police_off.html

Stamp was off duty that night. According to the police report, he was seen wearing brass knuckles as he left the club. Baltimore Police Officer John Torres, who was trying to prevent customers from leaving the bar during the brawl, tried to stop Stamp from leaving.

Stamp reportedly ignored Torres’s request, so the on-duty officer Tasered him. Stamp then drew his gun and Torres shot him. Police Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III has said that Torres did what he’d been taught to do when faced with this kind of situation.

No matter who you are alcohol and firearms are NEVER a good idea.

If said firearm is secured in a holster or case then it is not illegal nor is it suspicious activity as long as it is clearly in view of the officer and unloaded. How could a search or arrest be justified by having an unloaded firearm on the passenger seat in an enclosed holster or case, the law states quite clearly that this is acceptable.

How does the officer determine it is UNLOADED? Just sitting on the seat in a holster seems reason enough to start searching to me.

kalister1 said:

If said firearm is secured in a holster or case then it is not illegal nor is it suspicious activity as long as it is clearly in view of the officer and unloaded. How could a search or arrest be justified by having an unloaded firearm on the passenger seat in an enclosed holster or case, the law states quite clearly that this is acceptable.

How does the officer determine it is UNLOADED? Just sitting on the seat in a holster seems reason enough to start searching to me.

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"Start searching"....but as soon as he checks the gun and sees it unloaded the search should end unless he had probable cause to look for something else too.
That is of course if he has cause to even check.

My 2 cents:
You are confusing two issues. Where arms reach/lunge etc comes into play is it is against the law to "wear, carry, or transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, on or about the person" CR 4-203(a)(1)(i) There are a bunch of cases that define what "about the person" means but generally an item is carried on or about the person if it is physically on the person or in such proximity to the person as would make it available for his immediate use. Shipley v. State, 243 Md. 262, 220 A.2d 585 (1966) This charge usually applies to people who are carrying handguns in situations not involving vehicles.

If you are talking about a handgun in a car it is irrelevant where it is stored, arms reach or not. The law makes it illegal to "wear, carry, or knowingly transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, in a vehicle traveling on a road or parking lot generally used by the public, highway, waterway, or airway of the State;" CR 4-203(a)(1)(ii). So if you have a handgun anywhere in your car you are breaking the law unless you fall within one of the exceptions. The range exception states that this section does not prohibit: "the wearing, carrying, or transporting by a person of a handgun used in connection with an organized military activity, a target shoot, formal or informal target practice, sport shooting event, hunting, a Department of Natural Resources-sponsored firearms and hunter safety class, trapping, or a dog obedience training class or show, while the person is engaged in, on the way to, or returning from that activity if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

No mention of location at all. Only requirements are being unloaded (no definition of what that means relative to handguns anywhere) and in an enclosed case/holster. As far as this goes you have two pieces of guidance both over 30 years old:

Term "enclosed holster" used in paragraph (b) (5) means a holster so designed as to restrict in some way access to the handgun so that a fastening device or closure has to be opened, released, or removed before the weapon can be exposed or freed from the holster and made immediately available for use. 57 Op. Att'y Gen. 502 (1972).

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It could hardly have been the legislative intent to permit guns to be carried in an unfastened sack when it used the language "carried in an enclosed case or enclosed holster." While this language may not require a customary gun case or holster, it does require more than an unfastened sack. Jordan v. State, 24 Md. App. 267, 330 A.2d 496 (1975).

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kalister1 said:

How does the officer determine it is UNLOADED? Just sitting on the seat in a holster seems reason enough to start searching to me.

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um, try asking me? If you think I am lying then ask to see the firearm so that you can check for yourself, I am all about making an officer feel more secure in the fact that I am not a criminal. I would however have issue if the officer then decided to arrest me for having the firearm stored properly for transportation.

If I am understanding that Charlie, it is illegal to just carry wear etc when you feel like it, but you can do so if going to the range or one of the other listed activities?

OK, this gets me thinking. (<--- BAD). How does one legally transport a pistol to another state for open or ccw if they do not meet any of MD transportation "reasons"?

eddiek2000 said:

OK, this gets me thinking. (<--- BAD). How does one legally transport a pistol to another state for open or ccw if they do not meet any of MD transportation "reasons"?

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Oh but it does meet one of the transport reasons because you also plan on doing some informal target shooting while you are in that state....right?

Novus, i like your idea of having the code printed out for when you travel/transport. Would you care to share a PDF or word doc with the rest of the forum?

Jaybeez said:

Novus, i like your idea of having the code printed out for when you travel/transport. Would you care to share a PDF or word doc with the rest of the forum?

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+1 Would love to keep a copy handy.

Jaybeez said:

Novus, i like your idea of having the code printed out for when you travel/transport. Would you care to share a PDF or word doc with the rest of the forum?

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Actually my sister gave me a copy of "The Digest of Criminal Laws" booklet all LEOs in MD are supposed to have a copy of, so I didn't have to print anything out.
If you want a copy of the pertinent laws but not including the hunting law, then the ATF's Maryland page in State Laws is a start: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/26thedition/maryland.pdf

If you know the numbers or how to use it's search feature to good effect, Justia is good.

Criminal Law Article (basically 4-101, and 4-201 to 4-209):
http://law.justia.com/maryland/codes/gcr.html

Public Safety Article (when there is a permit and there is a mention about state preemption):
http://law.justia.com/maryland/codes/gps.html

Natural Resources Article (hunting...specifically 10-410):
http://law.justia.com/maryland/codes/gnr.html

3rdRcn said:

If I am understanding that Charlie, it is illegal to just carry wear etc when you feel like it, but you can do so if going to the range or one of the other listed activities?

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That's correct- you can only carry a handgun in your vehicle legally if you fit into one of the exceptions.

Houndkeeper said:

Here's a question......if I am pulled over for speeding on the way to the range, should I say I have an unloaded firearm in the back or keep it to myself unless specifically asked?

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In Maryland, no. In some states you do have to inform an officer, but not here.

I've been asked if I had illegal things in my car, but never specifically asked about a gun.

My answer: "I don't own illegal things."

gprimr1 said:

In Maryland, no. In some states you do have to inform an officer, but not here.

I've been asked if I had illegal things in my car, but never specifically asked about a gun.

My answer: "I don't own illegal things."

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Holy thread from the dead Batman! Houndkeeper hasn't been seen here in YEARS.