Just got off the phone With the State Police

[2SAM22]

Agreed. Why would they arrest if they new they would not get a conviction. Sounds like a false arrest.

I think Maryland laws are intentionally vague because it gives the defense lawyers (some of whom participated in writing the laws) something to argue about.

XD40,
Keep in mind the difference between reasonable suspicion (the standard for a terry stop or a traffic stop), probably cause (the standard for an arrest), and "beyond a reasonable doubt" (the standard for a criminal conviction).
Of course, civil cases require only a preponderance of the evidence (or 51%)

Many arrests are made at roadside with probable cause, but in court the judge, or jury, isn't convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

Police don't (or shouldn't) care what happens in court. Its not our job to try and second guess what will happen in court. If the standard for an arrest is met, many err on the side of caution, make the arrest, and leave it to the District Court Commissioners Office and the State's Attorney's Office to do their jobs.

 

[2SAM22]

. . . as far as court....."Innocent until proven guilty" (OJ is innocent?)

True, but the cost of navigating an arrest and the resulting court hearings successfully can add up $$$$$$$, and as others have mentioned, are better avoided in the first place.

 

[fivepointstar]

True, but the cost of navigating an arrest and the resulting court hearings successfully can add up $$$$$$$, and as others have mentioned, are better avoided in the first place.

VINCE....I think you know where I'm coming from when I say even a medicore Public Defender can beat this one of the PC is weak. In Harford, this is an easy Nolle Pros.

I agree with you comment, just do your job right. From there is up to the OSA to do thier job to convince a judge/jury "beyond a reasonable doubt."

 

[Half-cocked]

Second.....I disagree with "never tell a cop you have a gun" and to "lie"....Don't hide something if you NOTHING TO HIDE.

Did you EVEN BOTHER TO READ what I wrote? I NEVER said "lie".

Furthermore, if you encounter a routine traffic stop while going to the range, there is NEVER, EVER, EVER a reason to tell a cop you "have a gun". In fact, that would be the absolutely most STUPID thing you could ever say to a cop, out of the blue. I said if, for any reason you're asked, you CAN'T LIE.

 

[shawn]

First of all.....if you're transporting a firearm for legal purposes, don't do anythign stupid like speed or run a red light to draw attention to you. Tranporting a firearms is totally legal as long as its done to the letter of the law. As long as the ammo is seperate and locked away from firearm that is LOCKED away then you should be good. Any cop, even a rookie, would be able to figure out that its not "concealed" and carried for an unlawful purpose. As others have suggested locked the firearm in the trunk and if you can lock the ammo in the "not in the trunk" if you can lock it in a seperate case that would be preferrable.

Second.....I disagree with "never tell a cop you have a gun" and to "lie"....Don't hide something if you NOTHING TO HIDE. You're doing nothing wrong and you're not breaking the law so why lie??? Cops are no dummies!! What you don't need is them to build PC to search a vehicle. Terry v. Ohio (Terry Stop/Frisk) can extend to a vehicle if the officer/trooper can articulate.

LISTEN, how easy is it to articulate that an officer beleives there's a gun in the car.
1. you wear a shirt and hat that a pistol range logo and name
2. there hearing protection in your front seat
3. there is eye protection in your center console
4. you have the box trash of used ammo on the floor board of your car.
5. you have free gun magazines/catalogs that you get from the range.

To sum things up: If you have a gun in the car, don't do stupid sh*t to draw attention to you.

Did you even read my original post?

The Sgt at the licensing division and he said the firearm does NOT have to be locked up and does NOT have to be in the trunk.

It has to be in an enclosed case or holster. A range bag ......a backpack.....whatever.

The ammo also does not have to be in the glove box or separate.

He said it can be in the same range bag but just in an outside pocket of the range bag or something.

The whole reason I called is because I am sick of people giving out false information.

 

[shawn]

I think Maryland laws are intentionally vague because it gives the defense lawyers (some of whom participated in writing the laws) something to argue about.

XD40,
Keep in mind the difference between reasonable suspicion (the standard for a terry stop or a traffic stop), probably cause (the standard for an arrest), and "beyond a reasonable doubt" (the standard for a criminal conviction).
Of course, civil cases require only a preponderance of the evidence (or 51%)

Many arrests are made at roadside with probable cause, but in court the judge, or jury, isn't convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

Police don't (or shouldn't) care what happens in court. Its not our job to try and second guess what will happen in court. If the standard for an arrest is met, many err on the side of caution, make the arrest, and leave it to the District Court Commissioners Office and the State's Attorney's Office to do their jobs.

Vince,

I though I had read that you are Law Enforcement.

Can I ask you if you think he gave me good information?

He seemed to know the law and also seemed to believe that lunging distance and a loaded mag are probable cause for a search AND arrest. He said he would prob not get a conviction but he would arrest anyway.

What I didnt ask him and dont understand is what could I be arrested for?

The law to me is clear. Unloaded and in an enclosed case or holster.

Maybe I can see them saying loaded mag equals loaded gun.

But what could I be arrested for if a gun is within "lunging distance" if there is no mention of lunging distance in the law?

I guess I just dont understand where the idea of adding all these extra restrictions in the law comes from.

Is that something the head of the state police decided or does the policy vary by jurisdiction?


And more importantly how is the average citizen supposed to know what he can and cant do. I understand ignorance of the law is no excuse....but in this case I am not ignorant of the law......what I am ignorant of is certian departments policys.

I dont think it is reasonable for us to know policys that the state police makes up.


Any perspective you can give will be greatly appreciated.

Shawn

 

[coinboy]

The whole reason I called is because I am sick of people giving out false information.

Here's the problem. No matter who you talk to: Lawyers, Cops, the Licensing Division, people on MD shooters, Martin O'Malley, or the Freakin' President of the United States of America, no one will agree on what is actually legal to do when transporting guns in Maryland. The only thing that is fact is the laws as they are written. Read the laws yourself and you could teach your attorney a thing or two. When you go to court for firearms transpotation violations because the MDSP said you could do whatever, I guarantee they wont be there to back you up. They also wont give you anything in writing. I have already tried. They are just waiting for a test case I believe. Meanwhile, they make their own laws out of the barracks. I really do hate this state and I'm stuck here.

 

[shawn]

Here's the problem. No matter who you talk to: Lawyers, Cops, the Licensing Division, people on MD shooters, Martin O'Malley, or the Freakin' President of the United States of America, no one will agree on what is actually legal to do when transporting guns in Maryland. The only thing that is fact is the laws as they are written. Read the laws yourself and you could teach your attorney a thing or two. When you go to court for firearms transpotation violations because the MDSP said you could do whatever, I guarantee they wont be there to back you up. They also wont give you anything in writing. I have already tried. They are just waiting for a test case I believe. Meanwhile, they make their own laws out of the barracks. I really do hate this state and I'm stuck here.

So you asked them for a written explanation of laws and they refused???

That really blows me away.

Like I said.....how are we supposed to be legal if they wont even definitively tell us what we can and cant do?

I guess you are right....I know the law and if I get into trouble for following it then I will find a good lawyer.

 

[fivepointstar]

Did you EVEN BOTHER TO READ what I wrote? I NEVER said "lie".

Furthermore, if you encounter a routine traffic stop while going to the range, there is NEVER, EVER, EVER a reason to tell a cop you "have a gun". In fact, that would be the absolutely most STUPID thing you could ever say to a cop, out of the blue. I said if, for any reason you're asked, you CAN'T LIE.

My apologies on my error...I read right through that.

Also, I have a CCW. If I am stopped by LE for an investigative stop I identify that I am carrying. I'm not saying if I walk into 7-11 and there's a LE drinking a coffee I tell him that I'm carrying.....if you are stopped by LE to identify your permit to carry. If you get frisked and they find something I think you'll get his service weapon in your ear. Doing "out of the blue" would make someone look like a real dork.

Sorry again for hte earlier error...

 

[fivepointstar]

The Sgt at the licensing division and he said the firearm does NOT have to be locked up and does NOT have to be in the trunk.

It has to be in an enclosed case or holster. A range bag ......a backpack.....whatever.

The ammo also does not have to be in the glove box or separate.

He said it can be in the same range bag but just in an outside pocket of the range bag or something.

The whole reason I called is because I am sick of people giving out false information.[/QUOTE]

Hey...only a suggestion. If they are both locked and SEPERATE from each other then there's no question they are in "lunge" reach

 

[coinboy]

So you asked them for a written explanation of laws and they refused???

That really blows me away.

Not on this exact issue but yes.

I called them to verify C&R holders could "import" C&R handguns into the state with no restrictions. The officer told me yes. I asked him for something written and he basically told me that they wont do that. I told him I wanted to cover my butt and he refused. He said something like, "Trust me, you'll be okay." I don't trust the barracks as far as I can throw it. I think they wont issue written letters because anything written would be considered law/policy. They don't want to do anything that guarantees us something. Essentially, when it comes to firearm laws, we are all on our own. Funny considering they are all unconstitutional.

 

[shawn]

The Sgt at the licensing division and he said the firearm does NOT have to be locked up and does NOT have to be in the trunk.

It has to be in an enclosed case or holster. A range bag ......a backpack.....whatever.

The ammo also does not have to be in the glove box or separate.

He said it can be in the same range bag but just in an outside pocket of the range bag or something.

The whole reason I called is because I am sick of people giving out false information.

Hey...only a suggestion. If they are both locked and SEPERATE from each other then there's no question they are in "lunge" reach[/QUOTE]
Oh ok.

Wasnt trying to flame you.

If you lock it up its overkill.

The point I was trying to make is you dont HAVE to.

If you want to ...then fine but it is nice to have confirmation that you arent required to.

 

[Maryland Hunter]

[/QUOTE]Hey...only a suggestion. If they are both locked and SEPERATE from each other then there's no question they are in "lunge" reach[/QUOTE]

There is no "lunge" area. As Novus has pointed out, the law clearly states that the handgun may be worn, unloaded of course, while transporting. I really don't see what all of the fuss and confusion is about. The Maryland transport laws are pretty clear to me, and I keep a copy of them in my range bag, for "onsite interpretation", if needed.
We have enough crazy laws in this state, we don't need to make up more that don't exist.

MH

 

[shawn]

Not on this exact issue but yes.

I called them to verify C&R holders could "import" C&R handguns into the state with no restrictions. The officer told me yes. I asked him for something written and he basically told me that they wont do that. I told him I wanted to cover my butt and he refused. He said something like, "Trust me, you'll be okay." I don't trust the barracks as far as I can throw it. I think they wont issue written letters because anything written would be considered law/policy. They don't want to do anything that guarantees us something. Essentially, when it comes to firearm laws, we are all on our own. Funny considering they are all unconstitutional.

Yeah .....its great......they make up laws and then get you for not knowing them.

 

[rambling_one]

Several years ago a female Sergeant told me a loaded magazine was a no-no. At the AGC CCW symposium Captain Laura Herman who heads up the Licensing Division said a loaded magazine, separated from the handgun, was legal. Like many things related to MD's gun laws, this is a crap shoot.

 

[DD214]

It's amazing what a difference an invisible line can make:

VA: Nice Glock!
PA: Awesome Piece!
DE: Sweet .40!
MD: You have the right to remain silent...

 

[zoostation]

It depends on who you get on the phone in my opinion. Ask ten different troopers, expect ten somewhat different responses. Not sure when the hell a loaded magazine became a loaded firearm though (in my personal opinion).

 

[canuck]

As said earlier - it's just not worth the ******** involved in spending some "quality" time with the local constabulary.

There is no consistent story and if you get pinched it will be on you to clear your name. Again - not worth it. Unloaded gun in zippered compartment - no mag. Unloaded mags in mag pouches or ziploc or whatever. Ammo in its own container. Perhaps even locked range bag ( i personally don't lock my bag) All out of reach of you. Trunk, back seat, toolbox, whatever.

my $.02

 

[VNVGUNNER]

As said earlier - it's just not worth the ******** involved in spending some "quality" time with the local constabulary.

There is no consistent story and if you get pinched it will be on you to clear your name. Again - not worth it. Unloaded gun in zippered compartment - no mag. Unloaded mags in mag pouches or ziploc or whatever. Ammo in its own container. Perhaps even locked range bag ( i personally don't lock my bag) All out of reach of you. Trunk, back seat, toolbox, whatever.

my $.02

+1 that is how I transport.

 

[Decoy]

It would seem that the laws were written to make you afraid to transport your LEGAL firearm. Just like the aggressive seat belt laws they want compliance through fear. Lets face it most of us dread getting pulled over on the way to the range because even if you follow the letter of the law, the fact that your transporting a gun makes you some how guilty.