Just got off the phone With the State Police

[Rattlesnake46319]

It depends on who you get on the phone in my opinion. Ask ten different troopers, expect ten somewhat different responses. Not sure when the hell a loaded magazine became a loaded firearm though (in my personal opinion).

Because it's possible (no matter how implausible) that some crazed gun nut could file down the back of the mag, take a hammer, glue a nail to the head, and hit the primer! Why, with the springs and followers in the aftermarket mags that the evil companies are producing, they could even eject the spent brass!

I've got a two-seat pickup, so transporting gets to be an adventure. Lock the handguns and empty mags in a case and place them on the passenger floorboard (possibly "lunging distance"), ammo goes in an ammo can in the bed. Everything gets covered up, which I'm sure would be taken as admitting I'm up to no good. You know how cell phones now have ICE (In Case of Emergency) entries? Mine is set to my 1SG, JAG, and a PG LEO buddy in the event I get pulled over while on my way to the range.

I love this state, I really do. The Constitution is open to interpretation and the laws are not, no matter how vaguely written.

 

[BenL]

I'm still wondering why a loaded magazine is considered a loaded gun. I can't shoot a loaded magazine. That makes no sense (not that anything this sh!tty state does makes sense, but still...)

 

[AKbythebay]

He said "hunting" rifles and shotguns have to be in a case and the chamber open. And than ammo has to be in a separate pocket of the case.

He also said it has to be out of lunging distance.

This is compete ********. No where does it say a shotgun or hunting rifle needs to be "out of lunging distance". All is says is it needs to be in some sort of case or rack and must be unloaded. I can install a driver's door mounted holster system for my shotgun and transport it all day in there (as long as it's unloaded) and be in violation of NO Maryland laws. Just shows you how the cops don't read the laws and make it up as they go along. After all, why would they care. They can still arrest you and have you spend the night in jail just to let you go in the morning. Hell, maybe eventually you'll actually get your gun back. No problem....

 

[novus collectus]

This is compete ********. No where does it say a shotgun or hunting rifle needs to be "out of lunging distance". All is says is it needs to be in some sort of case or rack and must be unloaded. I can install a driver's door mounted holster system for my shotgun and transport it all day in there (as long as it's unloaded) and be in violation of NO Maryland laws. Just shows you how the cops don't read the laws and make it up as they go along. After all, why would they care. They can still arrest you and have you spend the night in jail just to let you go in the morning. Hell, maybe eventually you'll actually get your gun back. No problem....

Actually MD law does not say a long gun has to be cased or in a rack. However I think Monkey county and Baltimore say it does (which may violate state preemption.)

 

[novus collectus]

Whenever this subject of loaded mags comes up and the "why take the chance with a loaded mag" is mentioned I reminded of the parrellel.
Even though it is not illegal in the slightest, there are still officers in this state which will arrest someone who has a folding "penknife" over 3 1/2" long in the pocket or worn openly, so are all of us who have a 4" folding pocket knife going to stop carrying a folding pocket knife to avoid being arrested for a law they did not violate?
The maximimum penalty for a concealed weapon is the same for possessing a handgun in violation of the handgun section.

So I ask of people, why take the chance of carrying any kind of knife?

...me, I will continue to carry loaded mags not in the handgun on the way to the range and I will continue to have it on the seat next to me or if on my bicycle, on my hip in a holster just like I will carry a 4" folding knife in my pocket (if I had one).
If a cop arrests me for it, then I spend money on a lawyer getting off on the charge and the officer spends time and money on defending the false arrest suit. We both suffer; so be it.
At least I wouldn't have felt like a sheep in the meantime worrying about something that would unlikely happen anyway.

 

[Jim Sr]

Actually MD law does not say a long gun has to be cased or in a rack. However I think Monkey county and Baltimore say it does (which may violate state preemption.)

Guide to Hunting and Trapping in Maryland Page 52

WHEN HUNTING FROM A BOAT

"Transport firearms to the boat muzzle first with the action open, unloaded and cased."

 

[Adams74Chevy]

My .30-30 won't fit in it's case with the action open...

 

[Boxcab]

So my Ruger Single Action 45 Colts are safe to transport by leaving them empty in my holsters (on the belt) and the ammo in the ammo loops on the belt... on the seat beside me in my pickup truck?

Thats the way I read the law.


My AR15 mags are all loaded at home and transported to the range in an ammo box. I feel safe transporting that way and I save valuable range time doing so.

-Boxcab

 

[novus collectus]

Guide to Hunting and Trapping in Maryland Page 52

WHEN HUNTING FROM A BOAT

"Transport firearms to the boat muzzle first with the action open, unloaded and cased."

If that is not in the law code, then it is nothing more than a suggestion.

 

[novus collectus]

So my Ruger Single Action 45 Colts are safe to transport by leaving them empty in my holsters (on the belt) and the ammo in the ammo loops on the belt... on the seat beside me in my pickup truck?

Thats the way I read the law.


My AR15 mags are all loaded at home and transported to the range in an ammo box. I feel safe transporting that way and I save valuable range time doing so.

-Boxcab

Has to be an enclosed holster. Open tops are not the same, but I hear if it has a strap it that can hold it in it is good enough, however, I am sure this is just an interpretation. If the holster has a flap and it is closed, it is "enclosed" as I understand it.

 

[2SAM22]

Vince,

I though I had read that you are Law Enforcement.

Can I ask you if you think he gave me good information?

He seemed to know the law and also seemed to believe that lunging distance and a loaded mag are probable cause for a search AND arrest. He said he would prob not get a conviction but he would arrest anyway.

What I didnt ask him and dont understand is what could I be arrested for?

The law to me is clear. Unloaded and in an enclosed case or holster.

Maybe I can see them saying loaded mag equals loaded gun.

But what could I be arrested for if a gun is within "lunging distance" if there is no mention of lunging distance in the law?

I'm not going to second guess those guys, but a loaded mag in a car with no handgun is illegal? News to me. Maybe there was a misunderstanding?

You also have to understand that in addition to the law as quoted by Novus, there is also case law, which is used as judicial precedent for other similar cases. IIRC that is where you will find "lunge" mentioned.

I guess I just dont understand where the idea of adding all these extra restrictions in the law comes from.

Is that something the head of the state police decided or does the policy vary by jurisdiction?

MSP troopers have bosses who have bosses, who up the chain are led by the Superintendent of MSP who is appointed by, and serves at the pleasure of, the Governor.

And more importantly how is the average citizen supposed to know what he can and cant do. I understand ignorance of the law is no excuse....but in this case I am not ignorant of the law......what I am ignorant of is certian departments policys.

I don't think it is reasonable for us to know policys that the state police makes up.

Any perspective you can give will be greatly appreciated.

Shawn

I wish I could answer that one. Maryland is a strange state with strange laws.
BTW, shouldn't the average person be able to understand the tax code too?

In the end, and I think its been said here, try to do the right thing as you read the law, and obey the law to and from your destination and you'll more than likely be OK.

The knuckleheads are the ones who attract, and get, police attention and their subsequent scrutiny.

 

[novus collectus]

You also have to understand that in addition to the law as quoted by Novus, there is also case law, which is used as judicial precedent for other similar cases. IIRC that is where you will find "lunge" mentioned.

Do you know of any particular case where "lunge" was mentioned?
I have looked up before "within arms reach" or something like it and the only thing I found dealt with illegal possession/transport of a handgun and nothing to do with a legal transport (in other words the case had to do with not going to the range and the handgun was fully loaded).

 

[K31]

My .30-30 won't fit in it's case with the action open...

You're just begging to become the bitch of some guy named Bubba in Jessup aren't you?

 

[shawn]

I'm not going to second guess those guys, but a loaded mag in a car with no handgun is illegal? News to me. Maybe there was a misunderstanding?

You also have to understand that in addition to the law as quoted by Novus, there is also case law, which is used as judicial precedent for other similar cases. IIRC that is where you will find "lunge" mentioned.



MSP troopers have bosses who have bosses, who up the chain are led by the Superintendent of MSP who is appointed by, and serves at the pleasure of, the Governor.



I wish I could answer that one. Maryland is a strange state with strange laws.
BTW, shouldn't the average person be able to understand the tax code too?

In the end, and I think its been said here, try to do the right thing as you read the law, and obey the law to and from your destination and you'll more than likely be OK.

The knuckleheads are the ones who attract, and get, police attention and their subsequent scrutiny.

Thanks Vince for the response.

The laws here are strange and it seems like no matter what we do we are risking getting into trouble. I will take your advice and try to do what I know is legall and just hope that I never have to prove that what I am doing is legal.

 

[2SAM22]

Do you know of any particular case where "lunge" was mentioned?
I have looked up before "within arms reach" or something like it and the only thing I found dealt with illegal possession/transport of a handgun and nothing to do with a legal transport (in other words the case had to do with not going to the range and the handgun was fully loaded).

Not off the top of my head, but I do know that case laws talks about the lunge area (not sure if that word is used specifically) in reference to searching automobiles and occupants.

RKBA/Shall debate aside, I personally see no reason or necessity to tempt fate by carrying a loaded mag while transporting a firearm in a car while enroute to a range.

For the record, I am a very pro-RKBA/Shall issue kind of guy.

 

[fivepointstar]

Not off the top of my head, but I do know that case laws talks about the lunge area (not sure if that word is used specifically) in reference to searching automobiles and occupants.

RKBA/Shall debate aside, I personally see no reason or necessity to tempt fate by carrying a loaded mag while transporting a firearm in a car while enroute to a range.

For the record, I am a very pro-RKBA/Shall issue kind of guy.

Vince and Novus

I'm not sure if lunge is the actual language but I believe that its referring to the a suspect area of immediate control. When you talk about immediate control your looking at 4th Amendment Issues of Seach and Seizure and 4th Amendment when it refers to Seach Incident to an Arrest. The Supreme Court case law is Chimel v. California.

For those who are not aware of the 4th Amendment, the Chimel Ruling allows police officer to conduct a "warrantless search" of a suspects area of immediate control, hense the courts coined the phase "Lunge, grasp, and reach" of a suspect's control.

What does this have to do with the 2nd Amendment and transporting a firearm? To sum it up, the reason to have your firearm locked in the trunk and the ammo seperate is to eliminate the possibility of the firearm to be in the "lunge" of a person. 1) the firearm won't be construded as a concealed weapon. This is why I beleive its a good idea that if you are stopped by the police to explain there is a firearm in the vehicle. This is an area of caution for the officer and of course will keep this in the back of his mind. If its legal you have nothing to hide. 2) If lets say you are transporting a firearm from a range or place of purchase and you are arrested for something unrelated such as a District Court FTA Bench Warrant, won't be charged with Poss/CDW as an additional charge.

 

[Boxcab]

Has to be an enclosed holster. Open tops are not the same, but I hear if it has a strap it that can hold it in it is good enough, however, I am sure this is just an interpretation. If the holster has a flap and it is closed, it is "enclosed" as I understand it.

So the leather thong that slips over the hammer spur to retain the pistol might count? Very interesting....

Vince, Novus and all,

Good discussion. Can you address the pickup truck scenario? Is behind the seat "lunge area"? I often travel with the ammo in a closed box in the bed but keep the guns in the cab (behind the seat in cases or gun socks) and relatively accessible. I prefer to not put them in the bed where they would be in plain sight and possibly thrown from the vehicle during an accident.

Thanks,

Boxcab

 

[3rdRcn]

Vince and Novus

I'm not sure if lunge is the actual language but I believe that its referring to the a suspect area of immediate control. When you talk about immediate control your looking at 4th Amendment Issues of Seach and Seizure and 4th Amendment when it refers to Seach Incident to an Arrest. The Supreme Court case law is Chimel v. California.

For those who are not aware of the 4th Amendment, the Chimel Ruling allows police officer to conduct a "warrantless search" of a suspects area of immediate control, hense the courts coined the phase "Lunge, grasp, and reach" of a suspect's control.

What does this have to do with the 2nd Amendment and transporting a firearm? To sum it up, the reason to have your firearm locked in the trunk and the ammo seperate is to eliminate the possibility of the firearm to be in the "lunge" of a person. 1) the firearm won't be construded as a concealed weapon. This is why I beleive its a good idea that if you are stopped by the police to explain there is a firearm in the vehicle. This is an area of caution for the officer and of course will keep this in the back of his mind. If its legal you have nothing to hide. 2) If lets say you are transporting a firearm from a range or place of purchase and you are arrested for something unrelated such as a District Court FTA Bench Warrant, won't be charged with Poss/CDW as an additional charge.

five point, I have to step in and disagree with ya here bud, if you start arresting folks in the county you work in for what you just said, when the law states something totally different than your opinion, you may not have a job long. Remember your county is very pro 2A, one of the last and so are the judges. The law mentions nothing about the fact that the firearm must be in the trunk or out of reach. The laws pertaining to transportation are very explicit and if you arrest someone for not breaking the law then you are going to get yourself sued for unlawful arrest as well as unlawful detainment, both of these are severe civil rights violations. You know what the law says, which is nothing close to what you are saying and it is not up to you or any training officer to make up different wording or to alter the law, this is not in the scope of your authority or any other officers authority. You must uphold the law as it is written, not as you wish it was written. You swore an oath to this when you put that badge on, if you decide you know better then you might want to put that badge away and go into some other line of work. Not trying to flame you or anything but what you are saying is truly disturbing.

 

[coinboy]

This is why I believe its a good idea that if you are stopped by the police to explain there is a firearm in the vehicle. This is an area of caution for the officer and of course will keep this in the back of his mind. If its legal you have nothing to hide.

I will NEVER volunteer information to a police officer, ever. It just sets you up for trouble. If they see the stuff and ask, I have to tell them. I for one, would never tell an officer, "Oh, officer by the way, I am transporting three handguns, two shotguns, and a full-auto machine gun to the range." This is just begging them to search you car. What I do in my life is none of their damn business unless I am breaking the law. You also say that if a cop gets reason enough to search your car you did something really stupid. I find this hard to believe. Are you telling me there aren't ass hole cops (and some normal ones, too) out there that wont hassle you because you have legal guns in the car? I know there are, and all they need is to catch you speeding or with a busted tail light. Now you say speeding is illegal and you shouldn't do it but I bet you speed in your cruiser all the time. Everyone speeds. Should you go to jail for transporting legal guns just because some prick thinks you shouldn't have them, especially when your following the letter of the law but someones "interpretation" is different? Lawyers and judges interpret law not police officers. They are just enforcement. They are supposed to enforce laws as they are written, not make up their own policies. I never did figure out when the executive branch of our government had the right the make policies as good as law. Want a really good example? Look at the ATF's website for policies or interpretations. You will find many. Can you say police state? I think we're almost there.

 

[novus collectus]

Not off the top of my head, but I do know that case laws talks about the lunge area (not sure if that word is used specifically) in reference to searching automobiles and occupants.

RKBA/Shall debate aside, I personally see no reason or necessity to tempt fate by carrying a loaded mag while transporting a firearm in a car while enroute to a range.

For the record, I am a very pro-RKBA/Shall issue kind of guy.

Carrying a loaded mag is done by some because if there is an attack they at least have a chance. (e.g. think of the terrorist attack on the stopped traffic outside of Langley with the terrorist shooting into cars with a semi auto AK47 about fifteen years ago).
Me, I have a loaded mag because either I am going to the range that charges by the half hour and I don't want to pay to reload my own mags when I don't have to, or I grabbed my gun mags loaded for home defense and I see no point in unloading them for a law that does not exist.

As far as tempting fate, this is not like not wearing a seatbelt because I cannot explain your way out of a car injury like I could explain my way out of an arrest.
As someone else said they do too, I carry a copy of the MD handgun code with me when transporting handguns. If that doesn't at least make them rethink their actions and call a superior, then it would probably not matter how I transported the handguns because he probably was looking for any excuse to arrest me anyway.

And I know you are very pro RKBA. I also know you are just offering friendly advice.