HPRB November 17, 2015 Meeting Thread

[montoya32]

Security guard? Trooper?

Trooper Laswick.

 

[redeemed.man]

Hearing how the MSP licensing is run it makes me wonder what else they put the average citizen through. Just FYI trade names are taking 3 months now, was told I should have mine next year lol. .

Thanks to all those in attendance.

You can walk in and pay to expedite your application I think you can get it the same day for $75

 

[Gryphon]

I have been at every meeting except 3 since early March. Last night by far had more ups and downs than a roller coaster. That said, the trend is still for the better. The good news is that Chairman Thomas retired before his continued participation caused the "big one." It is clear new Chairman Wilson intends to improve the process, be objective and treat applicants appealing denials fairly.

The good colonel from Ft. Detrich did an excellent job presenting his case, and having applied a month earlier and having dealt with the same investigating trooper I can say I was told exactly what he testified to, i.e. that an investigation would not be performed based solely on an initial adverse GS determination. I pushed and got my investigation, but I have no doubt the Colonel was denied by MSP without fulfilling their obligations. So the Board screwed him for at least another month to let the MSP clean up its own house even though under the Board's own rules MSP has the burden and failed miserably. Very disappointing and indicative of a lack of decisiveness by the Board. I suspect this is just letting MSP dot the i's and cross the t's, but why at the expense of the applicant? Jurgena suggesting the colonel might shoot his family after the Board overturning MSP who failed to do a complete investigation? Really? I will be shocked if the colonel doesn't get his permit and it eventually works out. It's not the Boards job to help MSP clean up its own house. It remains unclear what Mr. Neverdon's role is, but it is clear he exercises some degree of influence over the Board. I sense it's a benefit and to assist with procedure over substance, just not clear?

There were several references to palpable need during the meeting, but none were developed or explained sufficiently for the Board to even take notice. The MSP, and for the time being the Board, continue to apply outdated legal standards as if it were still 2005.

In one word, and except for the prohibited applicants which amaze me, inconsistency prevailed.

No word on the scheduling of my own hearing. I am well over 90 days and many of the appeals have been for applications submitted a month or more after my own? I have supplemental material to submit but am waiting for my 10 day notice. It's clear the Board is not reviewing appeals in advance of the hearings. In fact the Board complained that MSP only provided some of the files at 3:00 for last nights cases. Supposedly the back log is at 25.

 

[PJDiesel]

Sacrificial lamb is what he was. He was visibly and audibly nervous the entire time.

Which is ********. They (MSP/Hogan Administration) should have the balls to do something affirmative rather than let someone (this Trooper for example) be put on the hot seat for something out of his control.

 

[DC-W]

It's the licensing division that's lacking. Hogan signed the papers affirming Wilson as the new chair yesterday morning.

 

[PJDiesel]

It's the licensing division that's lacking. Hogan signed the papers affirming Wilson as the new chair yesterday morning.

Correct, licensing division of the MSP.

Hogan signs papers directing the new Commander of the division to accept "self defense" as G&S unless otherwise prohibited and we're talking a whole different ballgame.

What a useless waste of taxpayer money this whole shit show is.

 

[redeemed.man]

What a useless waste of taxpayer money this whole shit show is.

Yep!

 

[Jaybeez]

I have been at every meeting except 3 since early March. Last night by far had more ups and downs than a roller coaster. That said, the trend is still for the better. The good news is that Chairman Thomas retired before his continued participation caused the "big one." It is clear new Chairman Wilson intends to improve the process, be objective and treat applicants appealing denials fairly.

The good colonel from Ft. Detrich did an excellent job presenting his case, and having applied a month earlier and having dealt with the same investigating trooper I can say I was told exactly what he testified to, i.e. that an investigation would not be performed based solely on an initial adverse GS determination. I pushed and got my investigation, but I have no doubt the Colonel was denied by MSP without fulfilling their obligations. So the Board screwed him for at least another month to let the MSP clean up its own house even though under the Board's own rules MSP has the burden and failed miserably. Very disappointing and indicative of a lack of decisiveness by the Board. I suspect this is just letting MSP dot the i's and cross the t's, but why at the expense of the applicant? Jurgena suggesting the colonel might shoot his family after the Board overturning MSP who failed to do a complete investigation? Really? I will be shocked if the colonel doesn't get his permit and it eventually works out. It's not the Boards job to help MSP clean up its own house. It remains unclear what Mr. Neverdon's role is, but it is clear he exercises some degree of influence over the Board. I sense it's a benefit and to assist with procedure over substance, just not clear?

There were several references to palpable need during the meeting, but none were developed or explained sufficiently for the Board to even take notice. The MSP, and for the time being the Board, continue to apply outdated legal standards as if it were still 2005.

In one word, and except for the prohibited applicants which amaze me, inconsistency prevailed.

No word on the scheduling of my own hearing. I am well over 90 days and many of the appeals are for applications submitted a month or more after my own? Supposedly the back log is at 25.

the MSP investigation is part of statute and comar, and i have a feeling that if the board granted him a permit without msp jumping through the required ihoops, it would be just as bad as if the board approved a prohibited person, as far as the AG and MSP's ability to take the board to court for judicial review goes.

Judical review against the board is the last thing we want.

to be clear, msp dropped the ball by not dotting the i's and crossing the t's, the board is just playing clean up ans holding msp to their burden.

its a delicate game at the moment.

 

[montoya32]

I agree and discussed the entire process with someone after the meeting. The entire process needs a restructuring. ANYONE WHO WAS TOLD THAT THEIR APPLICATION WOULD NOT BE PROCESSED BECAUSE IT LACKED A G&S, PLEASE FILE AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINT AGAINST THE TROOPER WHO MADE THAT STAYEMENT. If enough file complaints, Things will happen and we can at least guarantee it doesn't happen again. I also heard that a copy of the colonel's file would be immediately sent to Pallozzi today and the whole ordeal explained to him. Hopefully it causes a fire to be lit.

 

[montoya32]

the MSP investigation is part of statute and comar, and i have a feeling that if the board granted him a permit without msp jumping through the required ihoops, it would be just as bad as if the board approved a prohibited person, as far as the AG and MSP's ability to take the board to court for judicial review goes.



Judical review against the board is the last thing we want.



to be clear, msp dropped the ball by not dotting the i's and crossing the t's, the board is just playing clean up ans holding msp to their burden.



its a delicate game at the moment.

Agree, but once a file/applicant gets to the board, it is assumed by the board that the required process was completed. Completing the investigation and issuing the permit CAN be done in a matter of hours, so they could reverse MSP and MSP could do what is needed and issue the permit quickly.

 

[PJDiesel]

Hours.


Not days, not several weeks, not 5 MONTHS.

In the real world when a file sits on someones desk for MONTHS,.. people are fired. Give me one example in the private sector where these kind of time lines happen.

 

[protegeV]

the MSP investigation is part of statute and comar, and i have a feeling that if the board granted him a permit without msp jumping through the required ihoops, it would be just as bad as if the board approved a prohibited person, as far as the AG and MSP's ability to take the board to court for judicial review goes.

Judical review against the board is the last thing we want.

to be clear, msp dropped the ball by not dotting the i's and crossing the t's, the board is just playing clean up ans holding msp to their burden.

its a delicate game at the moment.

No, it would be like the board approving someone under the pretense of a clean record and at a LATER date their permit is revoked after finding they are prohibited. The colonel did his work. MSP had more than their allowed time and they dropped the ball. You can't write due process and time limits into the law and then delay, delay, delay and jerk someone around even after an hprb hearing. Well, I mean they can and they did, but it shouldn't be...

I hate to use this phrase anymore, but there is little common sense in this process. In the colonels case, the chairman had all the sense. He looked as if he wanted to smack the other board members upside the head for not swiftly and decisively overturning msp.

Mr jurgenas comments a out the colonel shooting his family were asinine at best. Wtf doea being ale to carry legally in public have to do with your ability to commit a heinous crime weapons that you already own.

It's lucky for he board that we can't interact. I can imagine how their head would spin if they could be taken to task for thir idiocy and ignorance on certain points.

Ms white took the cake as far as ignorance when she attempted to positively reinforce the colonels need for a permit string that it would make him into a first responder on the college campus where he teaches. And that people would feel safer with him carrying. The colonel immediately took her to task by saying he what she was suggesting was both wrong and illegal. She's missed the entire point of the ccw...

 

[Gryphon]

I agree and discussed the entire process with someone after the meeting. The entire process needs a restructuring. ANYONE WHO WAS TOLD THAT THEIR APPLICATION WOULD NOT BE PROCESSED BECAUSE IT LACKED A G&S, PLEASE FILE AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS COMPLAINT AGAINST THE TROOPER WHO MADE THAT STAYEMENT. If enough file complaints, Things will happen and we can at least guarantee it doesn't happen again. I also heard that a copy of the colonel's file would be immediately sent to Pallozzi today and the whole ordeal explained to him. Hopefully it causes a fire to be lit.

My investigating trooper made clear that declining to do a complete investigation was a licensing division SOP to save resources, and to focus on those more worthy/susceptible of satisfying GS. I called BS and pushed to avoid being in the very same position the colonel was in last night. At my insistence the trooper performed a thorough background check, and I believe he did so on much of his own time. I have no problem with the trooper. The bureaucracy at MSP is another story. That needs to be addressed from the top down but apparently they don't have any real leaders. That leaves the Board to be more decisive in correcting bad MSP conduct.

 

[montoya32]

My investigating trooper made clear that declining to do a complete investigation was a licensing division SOP to save resources, and to focus on those more worthy/susceptible of satisfying GS. I called BS and pushed to avoid being in the very same position the colonel was in last night. At my insistence the trooper performed a thorough background check, and I believe he did so on much of his own time. I have no problem with the trooper. The bureaucracy at MSP is another story. That needs to be addressed from the top down but apparently they don't have any real leaders. That leaves the Board to be more decisive in correcting bad MSP conduct.

I understand, but there needs to be several complaints so that Pallozzi knows it is not an isolated incident. In your case, I would file a complaint that you had to convince the trooper to do his job. His reasoning of conserving resources is a conveniently available excuse. The same would have happened had they not been overwhelmed.

 

[Gryphon]

I understand, but there needs to be several complaints so that Pallozzi knows it is not an isolated incident. In your case, I would file a complaint that you had to convince the trooper to do his job. His reasoning of conserving resources is a conveniently available excuse. The same would have happened had they not been overwhelmed.

They weren't overwhelmed. Like I said apparently there are no real leaders at MSP. I have wasted enough time and ink on Pallozzi. On the other hand, I am seeing some leadership at the Board.

 

[montoya32]

Like I said apparently there are no real leaders at MSP. On the other hand, I am seeing some leadership at the Board.

Agreed.

 

[protegeV]

Agreed.

How long til that lead is followed?

 

[44man]

so are they only backed up 25 apps or 25 apps they deem worthy of review and or meeting the board or just 25 they think wont fly.

 

[Stoveman]

They weren't overwhelmed. Like I said apparently there are no real leaders at MSP. I have wasted enough time and ink on Pallozzi. On the other hand, I am seeing some leadership at the Board.

Agreed. Last night's meeting, although still a mess, was definitely more professional than any I have witnessed.



Let me preface my comments by saying that I know that all the board members are new, but the one thing that stands out for me is the apparent lack of understanding on how things work that they are supposed to be the final arbiter. In no particular order, and not just from last night.

1. What LEOSA is and how it works.
2. Teachers aren't first responders.
3. LinkedIn is a site for professionals and business people to network. Of course the spook is going to put who he worked for and what he did on there and the account predated the document dump from the senator from California.
4. They have no sense of timeline regarding 10/1/13. They were completely confused how one applicant could have a Designated Collector letter and then be prohibited for a misdemeanor offense.
5. Confusing a signed copy of a book that mentions an applicant's name in the signing with the applicant being named in the book's text.


Mrs. Stove is the same way, she's intelligent and very good at her job, but kind of clueless as to how the world works.

Honestly, I know they are trying but it would scare the crap out of me if I had a case in the near future with these guys.

 

[TopTechAgent]

Hours. Not days, not several weeks, not 5 MONTHS. In the real world when a file sits on someones desk for MONTHS,.. people are fired. Give me one example in the private sector where these kind of time lines happen.

And in this situation where someone needs to defend themselves they could be KILLLED waiting....