Why the hate for SERPAs?

[Archangel]

Safariland is one of the Cadillacs of holsters IMO.

+1

 

[platoonDaddy]

The Serpa holster didn't cause this accident, but will end getting some of the blame.




After having fired several rounds during the course of fire, the officer was in the process of holstering when the pistol discharged through the open portion of the bottom of the holster. The round entered the outside of the right upper calf and exited the outside of the lower calf and was stopped by the ground (grass/dirt surface). The round did not strike any bone or the ankle or foot. There was not excessive bleeding and it was later found that there was no serious nerve damage. The officer is expected to make a full recovery.

Once first aid was rendered and EMT’s had arrived at the scene, an examination of the pistol in the holster revealed that the trigger was depressed to the rear of the trigger guard (see photograph). A plastic cylinder-shaped draw cord adjuster attached to the wet weather jacket the officer was wearing was lodged against the front of the trigger. The plastic draw cord adjuster had become caught inside of the trigger guard during the holstering of the pistol.

http://www.gundigest.com/gun-blogs/concealed-carry/draw-quickly-holster-slowly-and-with-care?et_mid=573933&rid=233879035

 

[booker]

...the trigger was depressed to the rear of the trigger guard (see photograph). A plastic cylinder-shaped draw cord adjuster attached to the wet weather jacket the officer was wearing was lodged against the front of the trigger. The plastic draw cord adjuster had become caught inside of the trigger guard during the holstering of the pistol.

There have been a few cases of those draw-cord adjusters pulling triggers. It is one of the first things I look for when I buy a jacket.

I've only bought two jackets that have those cords. On one, (medium-weight fleece), I removed the right-side adjuster and fused the cord. On the other (a light rain coat) I used a bit of black duct tape to stick it inside the jacket so it can't get in the way.

The gun, the ammo, the holster, your clothing, and you, all need to work as a system. If you're LE or think you may need to fight from a car or something else, that becomes part of the system. Practice, scrutinize, modify, evaluate, and train accordingly.

 

[Archangel]

There have been a few cases of those draw-cord adjusters pulling triggers.

Yes, yes there have. Cut those things off of any garment you intend to wear while shooting from a holster.

It's also perfectly acceptable to look at the holster to insure that it is clear of clothing or debris before re-holstering. You get no points for speed-holstering, and definitely negative points for shooting yourself in the leg.

The Serpa holster didn't cause this accident, but will end getting some of the blame.

Nah. The drawstring (and the shooter for not noticing it) is the culprit here. It could have happened with any holster.

The typical Serpa accident happens during the draw, not the re-holster.

 

[mikec]

Yes, yes there have. Cut those things off of any garment you intend to wear while shooting from a holster.

It's also perfectly acceptable to look at the holster to insure that it is clear of clothing or debris before re-holstering. You get no points for speed-holstering, and definitely negative points for shooting yourself in the leg.


Nah. The drawstring (and the shooter for not noticing it) is the culprit here. It could have happened with any holster.

The typical Serpa accident happens during the draw, not the re-holster.

Bingo.

 

[platoonDaddy]

Wonder if they will change the policy when not handcuffing. Certainly seems to make more sense to this old man. I have also attended handgun self-defense classes that have you holster the weapon with eyes on the threat.

As cops, we holster with our eyes on the threat in order to transition to handcuffing or some other activity.

 

[Dogabutila]

Holsters: The weapon needs to come out quickly. It doesn't need to go away quickly. If you're putting it away when the bad guys are still up and coming then you're doing it wrong. Everything should be settled and a-okay when you're putting it away so no problem watching it into the holster.

 

[Archangel]

...we holster with our eyes on the threat...

Food for thought: If there's still a threat, why are you putting the gun away?


I get it, though. Cops sometimes need to holster so that they can cuff, go hands on, etc. At that point, the threat level should have de-escalated to the point that its safe enough to put the gun away.

You then have to balance the risk of the "somewhat-less-of-a-threat" doing something in the half second that it takes to look the gun into the holster vs the risk of shooting yourself in the leg due to foreign objects in the holster. As with most things, there is no one right answer, and it will depend on the situation, training, environment, equipment, clothing, etc.

 

[TheCrow]

Wonder if they will change the policy when not handcuffing. Certainly seems to make more sense to this old man. I have also attended handgun self-defense classes that have you holster the weapon with eyes on the threat.

As cops, we holster with our eyes on the threat in order to transition to handcuffing or some other activity.

+1

I'm not LE but this makes perfect sense to me, lots can happen in a split second.

I have a serpa for my g19, seems good enough to me, just have to mind what you're doing and practice a lot as with any holster.

 

[Speaker2Wolves]

I have also attended handgun self-defense classes that have you holster the weapon with eyes on the threat.

As cops, we holster with our eyes on the threat in order to transition to handcuffing or some other activity.

Do they also teach you to engage the safety before holstering? Oh, that's right, some guns don't have a positive safety and build a safety into the trigger. Because it makes it simpler to fire.

If designing a holster that can lead to the trigger finger slipping into the trigger guard is a design flaw, why isn't putting the safety ON the trigger also a design flaw?

I've got nothing against Glocks, but I'll stick with my 1911, thanks. Sure, the safety can be accidentally disengaged, or never engaged, and then it's just a likely to discharge this way as any other weapon. But it then becomes a two-step process for an ND of this nature which, from a design perspective, would seem to be safer to me.

 

[BradMacc82]

Still waiting on my Safariland..., they don't kid about a 15 to 30 day lead time...

 

[swinokur]

Where'd you 0rder from? I ordered from Optics Planet. Not liking their way of doing business insofar as not telling you availability until after you order and of course not in stock.

No mas.

 

[BradMacc82]

Copquest.com

I was going to order directly from Safariland, but their site said it could take up to 30 days to process, thought copquest would be quicker, but they said 15 to 30 days - my order would be on the next delivery from supplier.

"Dear Customer:

Thank you for using our automated service. Here is information about your CopQuest order:
Your order number:
Internet reference:
Date received:

Sold To:
Brad

Ship To:
Brad

Order Status Detail:
16:32 - Internet order initiated.

Following is the content of your order:
Line 1. Qty: 1 - Description: 23-0830-919 - [SA-6378-919-131-DM] Safariland 6378 ALS Paddle/Belt Loop Concealment Holster ~STX Tactical - Right Draw {919} - Each: 43.20 - Line Total: 43.20
Comment: Item is now allocated to an incoming order from the manufacturer. Turnaround is expected to be within 15 to 30 days.

Line 2. Qty: 1 - Description: 23-2466-000 - [SA-6006-1-21] Safariland 6006 ALS Guard ~Right Hand - Each: 10.60 - Line Total: 10.60
Comment: Item is now allocated to an incoming order from the manufacturer with average turnaround in 15 days.

Your order will ship complete when all items are available"

 

[swinokur]

I ordered my high ride 1.5 inch belt adapters for mine from them. Good folks to deal with. Safariland has so many different styles and models it's hard to stock every variance.

You'll be happy. Let us know how you like it.

 

[BradMacc82]

Well at least I opted for expedited shipping once they have everything in, shipping from the west coast via ground - nah, I'll take the 2 day, I'll pay the extra shipping.

 

[Jester1341]

rrrrrrkevin, thanks this is exactly my thinking!

Also to anyone comparing I have a drop leg model, NOT the OWB model. I don't require retention from others taking my weapon this holster is to retain the weapon if I'm running or crawling or upside down....etc

John

 

[Speaker2Wolves]

If you want to add another retention level, check out the ALS Guard. It's cheap

http://www.safariland.com/dutygear/media/mediapop.aspx?model=6004

I just ordered a SL ALS holster for my Kimber from holsters.com. They said 3-6 weeks to ship, but actually shipped next day. Added the ALS guard, (cause i'm clumsy) and now I'm working on getting used to shooting from retention.

Was thinking about Tex "I just shot myself" Grebner, I've decided mixing and matching holsters is a bad idea. Reflexes don't like change.

I prefer a thumb break retention, so it's SL for all my holster needs.

 

[Deep Creek Rock]

I looked at the Serpas when I was looking for a holster for my 1911 - glad I didnt buy one though. I went with a simple Uncle Mikes Open Top paddle holster, and been very pleased with it. There is no chance of accidently squeezing off the trigger, or the release mechanism getting stuck.

Ironically while strolling through Gunsites (a leading firearms training facility started by Jeff Cooper ) web page - the Serpas are prohibited for use in thier pistol training classes, and they had an added PDF file about issues with the Serpas. Here is what it read: -

Forest
Service
Washington
Office
1400 Independence Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20250
America’s Working Forests – Caring Every Day in Every Way Printed on Recycled Paper
File Code:
5300
Date:
May 3, 2012
Route To:
5380
Subject:
Safety Issue-Prohibiting Use of Blackhawk SERPA Holsters
To:
Law Enforcement and Investigations Leadership Team
Several law enforcement agencies, including FLETC, have experienced incidents where students and field agents/officers using Blackhawk SERPA holsters have had accidental discharges resulting in personal injury and or property damage.
FLETC recently issued a notice to all Partner Organizations, advising of two recent incidents where students with Blackhawk SERPA holsters have had accidental discharges resulting in personal injury. On April 17, 2012, FLETC held a meeting with Partner Organizations and advised that holsters with an auto locking/finger release, such as the Blackhawk SERPA holster will immediately be banned from use in the training environment. FLETC had recently banned all instructors from using the SERPA Blackhawk holster while on FLETC firearms ranges and while working with students and was expanded to any use of these holsters on the firearms ranges at FLETC. However, DHS OGC is now reviewing the ban and FLETC is awaiting the OGC opinion before making their final determination.
The „SERPA Active Retention‟ design consists of a plastic L-shaped component which functions as the release button (from the outside of the holster) and as the lock (which engages inside the trigger guard when the weapon is holstered).
While Blackhawk may have intended for the end-user to apply inboard pressure with the pad of the index finger, under stress and given time constraints, users tend to push the button with the tip of their finger disengaging the retention device with direct inward pressure of the finger-tip. When the finger-tip pushes in on the release button and the user initiates the upward motion of the draw removing the weapon from the holster, the finger-tip tends to stay engaged in the same position used to disengage the retention device and can enter the trigger guard, making contact with the trigger, causing an unintentional discharge.
The Blackhawk SERPA release button can result in an unintended continuation of the movement of the trigger finger toward the trigger due to the “push button” motion required to complete the weapon draw. This unintended movement of the trigger finger has been observed during training with students and field agents when placed in some form of elevated stress situations.
In addition, there have been several reports from law enforcement and the military of debris (such as a pin head size pebble) getting lodged behind the release button inside the holster, making the withdrawal of the weapon from the holster impossible. Exterior examination of the holster is unable to detect whether debris has entered the internal working mechanism of the retention device within the holster. Thus, realization by the user that the holster has become
Law Enforcement and Investigations Leadership Team 2
inoperable due to debris will only be realized when the user unsuccessfully tries to draw the firearm from the holster and is denied access to the weapon.
The Air Force, Office of Special Investigations, (OSI), had incidents where debris has made the holster inoperable, thus making the withdrawal of the weapon impossible. Air Force OSI has banned the use of the Blackhawk holster. Also there are other federal agencies that have discontinued the use of these holsters.
The National Academy does not issue these types of holsters to our new hires, however, it is my understanding that several officers and agents in the field have purchased these types of holsters. The National Academy also does not currently issue the SERPA Taser holster to new hires. We issued the holster for a short time and discovered when there was significant stress on the holster, such as the officer engaged in ground fighting, the holster would release retention and the Taser would fall from the holster.
With the above in mind, due to safety concerns regarding the SERPA Firearm holster and SERPA Taser holster, the use of these types of holsters and any other holsters with the same type of auto locking/finger release is no longer authorized. Please ensure that any of your personnel who utilize these types of holsters discontinue their use until further notice.
/s/David L. Ferrell
DAVID L. FERRELL
Director, Law Enforcement and Investigations
cc: James Alford, Dan Harrell

Just some food for thought.

 

[A1Uni]

Do they also teach you to engage the safety before holstering? Oh, that's right, some guns don't have a positive safety and build a safety into the trigger. Because it makes it simpler to fire.

If designing a holster that can lead to the trigger finger slipping into the trigger guard is a design flaw, why isn't putting the safety ON the trigger also a design flaw?

I've got nothing against Glocks, but I'll stick with my 1911, thanks. Sure, the safety can be accidentally disengaged, or never engaged, and then it's just a likely to discharge this way as any other weapon. But it then becomes a two-step process for an ND of this nature which, from a design perspective, would seem to be safer to me.

We specifically train officers NOT to engage the safety before holstering. They carry their weapons in what we call "street ready" mode.

*Round in the chamber
*Safety/decock in "off" position
*Hammer down/decocked

This is with Beretta Storm PX4 pistols that are DA/SA.

With regard to the SERPA, we forbid their use on-duty, but they are approved for off-duty carry. The SERPA design makes it possible for an officer who has to ground fight to accumulate debris that jam under the side release tab of a SERPA holster, making it impossible for the gun to be drawn.

We tested the theory, and it is relatively easy to render the holster inoperable.

Cool holster, but it has some serious shortcomings.

 

[BradMacc82]

Still waiting on my safariland...