Why doesn't the transfer law apply to the State again?

[dblas]

No, it says what they SHALL do.

Yes, it says "shall do", but where is the penalty written for failure to abide by the statute?

 

[dblas]

Same for the Designated Collector wording...

(excerpted from COMAR)

I. If the individual is not prohibited by federal or State law from purchasing or possessing a regulated firearm, the notarized application shall be sufficient for a designation as a collector.

J. If the individual is designated by the Secretary to be a collector, the Secretary shall notify the individual in writing within 14 days of receiving the individual's request.

As Ab_Normal points out, no penalty is defined for not following the "SHALL".

*** When any nation mistrusts its citizens with firearms, it is sending a clear message. It no longer trusts its citizens because the government has evil plans - George Washington ***

COMAR is administrative rules not laws, hence no penalties listed for rules.

If you want to look for penalties, you need to be looking in Maryland Annotated Code.

 

[Name Taken]

Good luck with that.

LOL at finding a Sheriff to charge them.

Even worst is finding a States Attorney that isnt going to dismiss the case first thing.

I also think if there isnt a penality wrote into it then it isnt likely enforceable. It's more or less a solid recommendation per the law.

Good luck.

 

[mxrider]

I will say that it was great to see some of our elected officials fighting the good fight during the whole SB281 debacle, it would be nice to see them putting a foot forward towards this problem at MSP. Think I will shoot an email over to Dwyer. What was the name of the woman that was adamant against this bill? I'm at a loss for her name.

 

[Inigoes]

Good luck with that.

LOL at finding a Sheriff to charge them.

Even worst is finding a States Attorney that isnt going to dismiss the case first thing.

I also think if there isnt a penality wrote into it then it isnt likely enforceable. It's more or less a solid recommendation per the law.

Good luck.

It's still nice to say, the MSP isn't following the law

Thank you for finally agreeing

 

[Name Taken]

It's still nice to say, the MSP isn't following the law

Thank you for finally agreeing

I didnt agree with anything.

I havent and care not to read all of COMAR to make an educated decision.

All I said was if what was posted was right there is nothing enforceable about them waiting and good luck finding anyone in the state that is willing to "charge someone" like was suggested.

Not sure how you got that I agree MSP is breaking a law they might be not following the rules at best. Laws have penalities....rules do not.

My personal thought is this was another failure or atleast failure of foresight by the PRO 2A community in MD. In 94 or whenever this garbaged passed someone in the PRO 2A community should have had the 7 day fail safe built in. At the time it would have been VERY easy to get through and would keep their feet to the fire. But atlas no one did and now we are where we are.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

COMAR is administrative rules not laws, hence no penalties listed for rules.

If you want to look for penalties, you need to be looking in Maryland Annotated Code.

Can you provide a pointer to the section in the MAC that imposes a penalty against the State for not abiding by its commitment in the COMAR? The MAC looks like it only addresses what is done to the People.

By the way, I was simply pointing out that they don't abide by that either... If you can find a penalty for the State on either point (delaying firearm delivery or granting collector licenses, hooray!)

There are statements in the COMAR about being subject to imprisonment,etc.

*** When any nation mistrusts its citizens with firearms, it is sending a clear message. It no longer trusts its citizens because the government has evil plans - George Washington ***

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Ok, here's the section in the MAC dealing with the approval/disapproval. Note there are no penalties on the State, but it is clear there is a deadline for a NOT DISAPPROVE of 7 days. See (b)(1).

§5–122.
(a) The Secretary shall disapprove a firearm application if:
(1) the Secretary determines that the firearm applicant supplied false information or made a false statement;
(2) the Secretary determines that the firearm application is not properly completed; or
(3) the Secretary receives written notification from the firearm applicant’s licensed attending physician that the firearm applicant suffers from a mental disorder and is a danger to the firearm applicant or to another.
(b) (1) If the Secretary disapproves a firearm application, the Secretary shall notify the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor in writing of the disapproval within 7 days after the date that the executed firearm application is forwarded to the Secretary by certified mail or facsimile machine.
(2) After notifying the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor under paragraph (1) of this subsection, the Secretary shall notify the prospective purchaser, lessee, or transferee in writing of the disapproval.
(3) The date when the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor forwards the executed firearm application to the Secretary by certified mail or by facsimile machine is the first day of the 7*day period allowed for notice of disapproval to the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor.

*** When any nation mistrusts its citizens with firearms, it is sending a clear message. It no longer trusts its citizens because the government has evil plans - George Washington ***

 

[Woodnickel]

Within the last few weeks I sent letters to my so called "representatives" asking why the laws only apply to citizens, and how we are expected to follow new laws when MSP doesn't follow old ones. After a week of no response I wrote again. Still no response. The last thing I sent them was notification that I am now a registered democrap. We will see if that solicits some type of worthless correspondence.

 

[Infantry23]

Peaceful demonstrations. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that peaceful demonstrations, when ignored, are usually followed by further pressures. Can't hurt to try imo.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

I am applying to law school. That's it!

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Peaceful demonstrations. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that peaceful demonstrations, when ignored, are usually followed by further pressures. Can't hurt to try imo.

Tried this. See thread "Peaceful Gathering...". Shot down in flames....

*** When any nation mistrusts its citizens with firearms, it is sending a clear message. It no longer trusts its citizens because the government has evil plans - George Washington ***

 

[Markp]

OK, I shall have worded it differently. But there still is no penalty for not doing it so the law is basically useless without a penalty for not following it as we can see.

Where is he NOT violating subsection §5-129 by not conducting the background investigation by in accordance with §5-121?​

§5-129 states:

(c) Background investigation.- On receipt of the firearm application and the application for a multiple purchase, the Secretary shall conduct a background investigation as required in §5-121 of this subtitle.

(d) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both.

If he fails to comply with §5-129 he has violated that section, has he not? If so, he's subject to be charged with a misdemeanor and subject to the penalties for failing to comply with the law. Is it a technicality, yes, but I don't care if it's a technicality. Charge the bastard... the law is technical. ON RECEIPT of the application HE SHALL CONDUCT A BACKGROUND INVESTIGATION AS REQUIRED BY §5-121. He is NOT doing it on RECEIPT and is in violation of the law.



Below is §5-129 in it's entirety:

§ 5-129. Same - Multiple purchases allowed.

(a) Requirements.- Notwithstanding § 5-128(b) of this subtitle, a person may purchase more than one regulated firearm in a 30-day period if:

(1) the person applies for and the Secretary approves a multiple purchase; and
(2)

(i) the purchase of the regulated firearms is for a private collection or a collector series;
(ii) the purchase of the regulated firearms is a bulk purchase from an estate sale;
(iii)

1. the purchase of not more than two regulated firearms is a multiple purchase to take advantage of a licensee's discounted price available only for a multiple purchase; and
2. the purchaser is prohibited from purchasing a regulated firearm during the following 30-day period unless approved under item (i) or (ii) of this item; or​

(iv) the purchase is for other purposes similar to items (i) through (iii) of this item.​

(b) Application.-

(1) The application for a multiple purchase shall:

(i) list the regulated firearms to be purchased;
(ii) state the purpose of the purchase of more than one regulated firearm in a 30-day period;
(iii) be witnessed by a licensee or designated law enforcement agency; and
(iv) be signed under the penalty of perjury by the firearm applicant.
​

(2) The application for a multiple purchase of regulated firearms shall be attached to a completed firearm application and forwarded to the Secretary by a licensee or designated law enforcement agency.
​

(c) Background investigation.- On receipt of the firearm application and the application for a multiple purchase, the Secretary shall conduct a background investigation as required in § 5-121 of this subtitle.

(d) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both.

 

[Ab_Normal]

My personal thought is this was another failure or atleast failure of foresight by the PRO 2A community in MD. In 94 or whenever this garbaged passed someone in the PRO 2A community should have had the 7 day fail safe built in. At the time it would have been VERY easy to get through and would keep their feet to the fire. But atlas no one did and now we are where we are.

They did. It is the part that says the FFL may transfer the firearm after 7 days if no response is heard from the MSP. And here we go down the may vs shall road again.

So my argument about the may vs shall is that secondary transfers are NOT required to go through a background check since:

§ 5-124. Secondary transactions.


(a) Seven-day waiting period.-

(1) A person who is not a licensee may not sell, rent, transfer, or purchase a regulated firearm until after 7 days following the time a firearm application is executed by the firearm applicant, in triplicate, and the original is forwarded by a licensee to the Secretary.

(2) As an alternative to completing a secondary sale of a regulated firearm through a licensee, a prospective seller, lessor, or transferor and a prospective purchaser, lessee, or transferee may complete the transaction through a designated law enforcement agency.

 

[Ab_Normal]

I didnt agree with anything.

I havent and care not to read all of COMAR to make an educated decision.

All I said was if what was posted was right there is nothing enforceable about them waiting and good luck finding anyone in the state that is willing to "charge someone" like was suggested.

Not sure how you got that I agree MSP is breaking a law they might be not following the rules at best. Laws have penalities....rules do not.

COMAR is administrative rules not laws, hence no penalties listed for rules.

If you want to look for penalties, you need to be looking in Maryland Annotated Code.

You need to brush up a little. COMAR is full of penalties for violations of the regulations:

§ 5-128. Purchases within 30 days - In general.

(d) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both.

§ 5-134. Restrictions on sale, rental, or transfer of regulated firearms.

(2) A person who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 1 year or a fine not exceeding $1,000 or both.

 

[Ab_Normal]

Where is he NOT violating subsection §5-129 by not conducting the background investigation by in accordance with §5-121?​

§5-129 states:

(c) Background investigation.- On receipt of the firearm application and the application for a multiple purchase, the Secretary shall conduct a background investigation as required in §5-121 of this subtitle.

(d) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both.

If he fails to comply with §5-129 he has violated that section, has he not? If so, he's subject to be charged with a misdemeanor and subject to the penalties for failing to comply with the law. Is it a technicality, yes, but I don't care if it's a technicality. Charge the bastard... the law is technical. ON RECEIPT of the application HE SHALL CONDUCT A BACKGROUND INVESTIGATION AS REQUIRED BY §5-121. He is NOT doing it on RECEIPT and is in violation of the law.



Below is §5-129 in it's entirety:

§ 5-129. Same - Multiple purchases allowed.

(a) Requirements.- Notwithstanding § 5-128(b) of this subtitle, a person may purchase more than one regulated firearm in a 30-day period if:

(1) the person applies for and the Secretary approves a multiple purchase; and
(2)

(i) the purchase of the regulated firearms is for a private collection or a collector series;
(ii) the purchase of the regulated firearms is a bulk purchase from an estate sale;
(iii)

1. the purchase of not more than two regulated firearms is a multiple purchase to take advantage of a licensee's discounted price available only for a multiple purchase; and
2. the purchaser is prohibited from purchasing a regulated firearm during the following 30-day period unless approved under item (i) or (ii) of this item; or​

(iv) the purchase is for other purposes similar to items (i) through (iii) of this item.​

(b) Application.-

(1) The application for a multiple purchase shall:

(i) list the regulated firearms to be purchased;
(ii) state the purpose of the purchase of more than one regulated firearm in a 30-day period;
(iii) be witnessed by a licensee or designated law enforcement agency; and
(iv) be signed under the penalty of perjury by the firearm applicant.
​

(2) The application for a multiple purchase of regulated firearms shall be attached to a completed firearm application and forwarded to the Secretary by a licensee or designated law enforcement agency.
​

(c) Background investigation.- On receipt of the firearm application and the application for a multiple purchase, the Secretary shall conduct a background investigation as required in § 5-121 of this subtitle.

(d) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both.

That penalty only applies to that section. It is going to be a legal stretch and very bad precedent to take penalties from one section and apply them to another section.

 

[Markp]

That penalty only applies to that section. It is going to be a legal stretch and very bad precedent to take penalties from one section and apply them to another section.

No, just charge him for violating that section... Don't try to extend it... He violated §5-129(c) which is punishable as laid out in §5-129(d). He did not conduct the investigation on receipt of the application, plain and simple.

 

[Ab_Normal]

No, just charge him for violating that section... Don't try to extend it... He violated §5-129(c) which is punishable as laid out in §5-129(d). He did not conduct the investigation on receipt of the application, plain and simple.

Not going to work. The "secretary" is not a "person" by definition. Only a person can be convicted of this section according to the penalty. Which basically means the secretary can do whatever it wants.

 

[Sundancer]

Where is he NOT violating subsection §5-129 by not conducting the background investigation by in accordance with §5-121?​

§5-129 states:

(c) Background investigation.- On receipt of the firearm application and the application for a multiple purchase, the Secretary shall conduct a background investigation as required in §5-121 of this subtitle.

(d) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both.

If he fails to comply with §5-129 he has violated that section, has he not? If so, he's subject to be charged with a misdemeanor and subject to the penalties for failing to comply with the law. Is it a technicality, yes, but I don't care if it's a technicality. Charge the bastard... the law is technical. ON RECEIPT of the application HE SHALL CONDUCT A BACKGROUND INVESTIGATION AS REQUIRED BY §5-121. He is NOT doing it on RECEIPT and is in violation of the law.



Below is §5-129 in it's entirety:

§ 5-129. Same - Multiple purchases allowed.

(a) Requirements.- Notwithstanding § 5-128(b) of this subtitle, a person may purchase more than one regulated firearm in a 30-day period if:

(1) the person applies for and the Secretary approves a multiple purchase; and
(2)

(i) the purchase of the regulated firearms is for a private collection or a collector series;
(ii) the purchase of the regulated firearms is a bulk purchase from an estate sale;
(iii)

1. the purchase of not more than two regulated firearms is a multiple purchase to take advantage of a licensee's discounted price available only for a multiple purchase; and
2. the purchaser is prohibited from purchasing a regulated firearm during the following 30-day period unless approved under item (i) or (ii) of this item; or​

(iv) the purchase is for other purposes similar to items (i) through (iii) of this item.​

(b) Application.-

(1) The application for a multiple purchase shall:

(i) list the regulated firearms to be purchased;
(ii) state the purpose of the purchase of more than one regulated firearm in a 30-day period;
(iii) be witnessed by a licensee or designated law enforcement agency; and
(iv) be signed under the penalty of perjury by the firearm applicant.
​

(2) The application for a multiple purchase of regulated firearms shall be attached to a completed firearm application and forwarded to the Secretary by a licensee or designated law enforcement agency.
​

(c) Background investigation.- On receipt of the firearm application and the application for a multiple purchase, the Secretary shall conduct a background investigation as required in § 5-121 of this subtitle.

(d) Penalty.- A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine not exceeding $5,000 or both.

Since "Secretary" is specifically defined in the code, it is likely that the reference "person" is referring to others (i.e. citizens) in the process and not the "Secretary" - just a guess.

SORRY - DID NOT SEE POST ABOVE - MODERATOR CAN DELETE THIS POST

 

[Markp]

Well now they have to deal with MSI, now don't they...

At least they are consistent. SHALL means: whenever they find fit or if they ever want to...

OK, I shall have worded it differently. But there still is no penalty for not doing it so the law is basically useless without a penalty for not following it as we can see.

Same for the Designated Collector wording...

(excerpted from COMAR)

I. If the individual is not prohibited by federal or State law from purchasing or possessing a regulated firearm, the notarized application shall be sufficient for a designation as a collector.

J. If the individual is designated by the Secretary to be a collector, the Secretary shall notify the individual in writing within 14 days of receiving the individual's request.

As Ab_Normal points out, no penalty is defined for not following the "SHALL".

*** When any nation mistrusts its citizens with firearms, it is sending a clear message. It no longer trusts its citizens because the government has evil plans - George Washington ***

The law accommodates for the MSP quiescence after 7 days.

We all know, the MSP does not follow the rules, look at the COMAR for the collectors affadavit!?!?

Yes, it says "shall do", but where is the penalty written for failure to abide by the statute?

Good luck with that.

LOL at finding a Sheriff to charge them.

Even worst is finding a States Attorney that isnt going to dismiss the case first thing.

I also think if there isnt a penality wrote into it then it isnt likely enforceable. It's more or less a solid recommendation per the law.

Good luck.

I didnt agree with anything.

I havent and care not to read all of COMAR to make an educated decision.

All I said was if what was posted was right there is nothing enforceable about them waiting and good luck finding anyone in the state that is willing to "charge someone" like was suggested.

Not sure how you got that I agree MSP is breaking a law they might be not following the rules at best. Laws have penalities....rules do not.

My personal thought is this was another failure or atleast failure of foresight by the PRO 2A community in MD. In 94 or whenever this garbaged passed someone in the PRO 2A community should have had the 7 day fail safe built in. At the time it would have been VERY easy to get through and would keep their feet to the fire. But atlas no one did and now we are where we are.