What can us messy civilians buy class III?

[drive_accord_ingly]

Ok. I think I have got most of the fundamentals down. If I am incorrect about any of this class III stuff. Your help is very much appreciated.

I've been contemplating a foray into the class III world. Based on reading the NFA STICKY And other sources, this is what I understand to be the case.

The NFA And the GCA of 68 stops the sale, manufacture, and importation of full auto firearms in the US, which also applies to suppressors and SBR's. One can purchase a pre 68 full auto but at an exorbitant markup. No new full auto firearms can be sold to us measly civilians. Except if you have a LE letterhead. In which case it must be duty related. But if said letterhead is provided, the floodgates opens and you have access to just about anything up to .50 cal. Everything from Beretta 93r's to Grease guns, to Thompson's, to M4's, to full auto Uzis are yours at sensible prices.

But, for us civilians, a foray into the class III world pretty much allows us to get access to suppressor a, pre 68 guns(at exorbitant, mind boggling markups) , and maybe a full auto AR ( manufactured in the US). And that's really it.

Right?

Because of their tremendous reputation, the soldiers of the old guard were permitted liberties which would not have been tolerated in other units. When Napoleon met Tsar Alexander of Russia at Tilsit in 1807 he pointed to a terribly scarred Grenadier. "What do you think of men who can endure such wounds?" he asked. " and what do you think of men who can inflict them?" replied the Tsar. "They're all dead!" interjected the Grenadier, settling the issue once and for all.

 

[Rack&Roll]

Wait, did you say you were a "messy" civilian or a "measly" one. My answer would be crafted depending on resolving this first....

 

[eruby]

Wait, did you say you were a "messy" civilian or a "measly" one. My answer would be crafted depending on resolving this first....

Maybe he posted while eating a rack of ribs.

 

[fred333]

Put simply, you can purchase and/or manufacture new silencers, SBRs/SBSs; you can purchase most pre-ban (i.e., used) select-fire firearms (and components.....i.e., "auto-sears") as a civilian (civilians cannot manufacture or purchase new select-fire firearms (or components)).
For specifics relating to the complex web of US NFA regulations, always consult an attorney that specializes in this area of the law.

 

[dontpanic]

1986 is the year that new select fire (machine guns) were vanned. So all transferable ones were made prior to that.

There are a lot of SBRs, SBSs and AOWs available for sale. Or you can make your own. Same thing with suppressor s.

 

[Rack&Roll]

Ha...I can be found moving them from my van to my Ma Duece...

 

[drive_accord_ingly]

Wait, did you say you were a "messy" civilian or a "measly" one. My answer would be crafted depending on resolving this first....

I meant measly.

Based on your answer, you must be a consultant.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

You have a few things confused.

When dealing with MGs:
1 Transferable MGs are Machine guns, selectfire or FA only, registered before 1986. These are legal to own and transfer to other individuals.
2. Pre 86 Dealer samples. These guns can only be owned by FFL/SOTs but they can be kept after the license is give up.
3. Post samples. These also can only be bought/made but FFL/SOTs. Post sample guns made post 86. These These guns need a letter from a LEO to obtain unless the lesser is going out of business. They must be sold or destroyed when you give up your FFL/SOT

So for the most part, you can buy category 1. They are much more expensive as you said.

SBRs, SBS, DDs, Silencers, AOWs... are also NFA restricted however they can still be manufactured and transferred.

Note that the class III should be NFA most often. NFA for National Firearms Act of 1934.

So yes you can buy a MG but must find one for sale and then go through ATF paperwork to do the transfer. However you are looking for a transferable, or a Dewat. You can not get a post sample. postie, pre 86 dealer sample...etc.

 

[ericoak]

Technically Class 3 refers to the license an SOT must have to sell NFA items. They are really Title 2 firearms.

But more people get it wrong than right, so does it matter?

 

[carpecervisi]

So here's something I've never fully understood.. Let's say I want to buy more NFA guns on the cheap. What's stopping me from getting my FFL/SOT and picking up a couple of pre-May samples and not renew my license?

You can pick up pre-ban dealer samples for roughly 50% off civilian prices, right? Getting an FFL/SOT can't cost that much. What am I missing?

 

[ericoak]

So here's something I've never fully understood.. Let's say I want to buy more NFA guns on the cheap. What's stopping me from getting my FFL/SOT and picking up a couple of pre-May samples and not renew my license?

You can pick up pre-ban dealer samples for roughly 50% off civilian prices, right? Getting an FFL/SOT can't cost that much. What am I missing?

Charges for tax evasion are possible, and the ATF is unlikely to approve your SOT without a business plan. Plus zoning regulations. And you are now an FFL so if you use your house the ATF can come inspect your house.

 

[drive_accord_ingly]

So here's something I've never fully understood.. Let's say I want to buy more NFA guns on the cheap. What's stopping me from getting my FFL/SOT and picking up a couple of pre-May samples and not renew my license?

You can pick up pre-ban dealer samples for roughly 50% off civilian prices, right? Getting an FFL/SOT can't cost that much. What am I missing?

Don't you have to be a manufacturer engaged in the business of manufacturing said products to apply for the FFL? And don't you give the ATFE permission to come for inspections as part if granting your license? You are on the hook for keeping meticulous records of every firearm/transaction.

So let's say the ATF never inspect you. You dodge a bullet. But if an ATF inspector rings the bell and asks to see your record book and it shows no or maybe you manufactured 45 NFA devices and had zero or two transactions on the books. And he sees no milling machines, no forging doohickeys, nothing to suggest that you are really in the business to make and sell said devices, and it looks like you are just getting the FFL/SOT to buy guns cheaper. What's that ATF
inspector gonna say to his buddies in the FEDERAL government.

Maybe he leaves you alone for a while. But the next time some schmuck breaks into and steels a couple of full autos and ribs a bank with it, and it gets plastered on the front page of the Washington Compost. Some politician from Eau Claire,Wi pounds the podium and says we have to do something about these automatic weapons flooding our street. The ATF needs to make an example to show they are not sitting on their hands. And they are looking for Chameleon gun runners...

Nice,huh?

 

[fred333]

So here's something I've never fully understood.. Let's say I want to buy more NFA guns on the cheap. What's stopping me from getting my FFL/SOT and picking up a couple of pre-May samples and not renew my license?
You can pick up pre-ban dealer samples for roughly 50% off civilian prices, right? Getting an FFL/SOT can't cost that much. What am I missing?

It's actually an interesting and topical question, especially in view of PAA's recent Executive Order requiring anyone involved in the business of selling firearms (even, in some cases, only one, says the Attorney General) to be an FFL.

On the one hand, back in the late 80s/early 90s (I forget the exact time frame, but around there), ATF disallowed FFLs that didn't have a storefront. On the other hand, PAA's EO requires anyone selling firearms that ATF defines as a "business" to have an FFL even though they may not have a storefront. Quite the Catch-22..

 

[drive_accord_ingly]

How many lawyers can you muster if you sold everything you own? How many gun hating lawyers can the ATF call in? Wanna find out?

 

[Pinecone]

It's actually an interesting and topical question, especially in view of PAA's recent Executive Order requiring anyone involved in the business of selling firearms (even, in some cases, only one, says the Attorney General) to be an FFL.

On the one hand, back in the late 80s/early 90s (I forget the exact time frame, but around there), ATF disallowed FFLs that didn't have a storefront. On the other hand, PAA's EO requires anyone selling firearms that ATF defines as a "business" to have an FFL even though they may not have a storefront. Quite the Catch-22..

90s, under Clinton.

And they did not ban such FFLs, they just made things difficult on them. Requiring business licenses and property zoned for business use.

 

[Jerry M]

Ok. I think I have got most of the fundamentals down. If I am incorrect about any of this class III stuff. Your help is very much appreciated.

I've been contemplating a foray into the class III world. Based on reading the NFA STICKY And other sources, this is what I understand to be the case.

The NFA And the GCA of 68 stops the sale, manufacture, and importation of full auto firearms in the US, which also applies to suppressors and SBR's. One can purchase a pre 68 full auto but at an exorbitant markup. No new full auto firearms can be sold to us measly civilians. Except if you have a LE letterhead. In which case it must be duty related. But if said letterhead is provided, the floodgates opens and you have access to just about anything up to .50 cal. Everything from Beretta 93r's to Grease guns, to Thompson's, to M4's, to full auto Uzis are yours at sensible prices.

But, for us civilians, a foray into the class III world pretty much allows us to get access to suppressor a, pre 68 guns(at exorbitant, mind boggling markups) , and maybe a full auto AR ( manufactured in the US). And that's really it.

Right?

Because of their tremendous reputation, the soldiers of the old guard were permitted liberties which would not have been tolerated in other units. When Napoleon met Tsar Alexander of Russia at Tilsit in 1807 he pointed to a terribly scarred Grenadier. "What do you think of men who can endure such wounds?" he asked. " and what do you think of men who can inflict them?" replied the Tsar. "They're all dead!" interjected the Grenadier, settling the issue once and for all.

GCA of 1968 did not stops the sale, manufacture, and importation of full auto firearms in the US. Only the importation! Full auto were produced in the USA and sold to civilians through the time of a bill that was signed by Ragan. That bill limited the number of FA firearms to what was in civilian hands. I forgot the name of that bill. The GCA of 1968 also formed ATF, which previously were concerned with bootleggers; created the requirements for FFLs, no more guns through the mail, and a whole bunch of requirement for SBRs, shotguns, penguns etc.

 

[Mike OTDP]

So here's something I've never fully understood.. Let's say I want to buy more NFA guns on the cheap. What's stopping me from getting my FFL/SOT and picking up a couple of pre-May samples and not renew my license?

You can pick up pre-ban dealer samples for roughly 50% off civilian prices, right? Getting an FFL/SOT can't cost that much. What am I missing?

Pre-May samples are nearly as valuable as transferables, for precisely that reason. And the SOT tax stamp you need as a dealer is $800, IIRC.

 

[Pinecone]

GCA of 1968 did not stops the sale, manufacture, and importation of full auto firearms in the US. Only the importation! Full auto were produced in the USA and sold to civilians through the time of a bill that was signed by Ragan. That bill limited the number of FA firearms to what was in civilian hands. I forgot the name of that bill. The GCA of 1968 also formed ATF, which previously were concerned with bootleggers; created the requirements for FFLs, no more guns through the mail, and a whole bunch of requirement for SBRs, shotguns, penguns etc.

FOPA 1986.

It also gave us legal carry through states that are 2A unfriendly.

And removed the adjacent state restriction from long gun purchases out of state.

 

[rico903]

Pre-May samples are nearly as valuable as transferables, for precisely that reason. And the SOT tax stamp you need as a dealer is $800, IIRC.

Depends on your definition of "nearly" From what I see on the Class II board classifieds, they are quite a bit bit cheaper than transferables. In between pre May dealer samples and transferable.

 

[rico903]

Don't you have to be a manufacturer engaged in the business of manufacturing said products to apply for the FFL? And don't you give the ATFE permission to come for inspections as part if granting your license? You are on the hook for keeping meticulous records of every firearm/transaction.

So let's say the ATF never inspect you. You dodge a bullet. But if an ATF inspector rings the bell and asks to see your record book and it shows no or maybe you manufactured 45 NFA devices and had zero or two transactions on the books. And he sees no milling machines, no forging doohickeys, nothing to suggest that you are really in the business to make and sell said devices, and it looks like you are just getting the FFL/SOT to buy guns cheaper. What's that ATF
inspector gonna say to his buddies in the FEDERAL government.

Maybe he leaves you alone for a while. But the next time some schmuck breaks into and steels a couple of full autos and ribs a bank with it, and it gets plastered on the front page of the Washington Compost. Some politician from Eau Claire,Wi pounds the podium and says we have to do something about these automatic weapons flooding our street. The ATF needs to make an example to show they are not sitting on their hands. And they are looking for Chameleon gun runners...

Nice,huh?

Don't know where you are getting your information but you DO NOT have to be a manufacturer to obtain a Class III dealers license. You might want to go to
Uzitalk.com and go to the educational section on Class III/Title II weapons. You'll find comprehensive info on all of your questions.