What are the firearm requirements for wear and carry class?

[4g64loser]

Reminds me of an old 'Liddy-ism'; "... grind the front sight off so it doesn't cut your a** open when the bad guy shoves it up there..."

Yeah. Pretty much what this guy was saying. He was a cop up in PA. Met him shooting bowling pin matches at little clubs up there. He shot a lot of bullseye and PPC. Wicked good with a pistol. He was not a fan of anything less than a 357 magnum loaded to full power for social purposes but that was back when cops didn't have carbines.

 

[lazarus]

I tend to subscribe to the marshall and sanow research as it is a compilation of both empirical testing and actual shooting results on the street with a very deep data set. They do not rate most rounds below 9mm very well though there are a few outlier exceptions in the less powerful chamberings.

I've probably posted this story before but one of my friends was cleaning his sidearm (45 for those curious) after a range day when someone broke into his place. He had his walther p22 out to be cleaned next. Fortunately he had a loaded mag in the range bag, managed to get it loaded, and score six hits of ten rounds fired as the threat closed. The police located the perp because he was walking funny. I believe about half an hour later but could have been longer. No aorta or CNS hits.

Carry what you want to but I'm not going with less than 9x19 or 38+P. The high probability of peripheral impacts during a dynamic encounter is borne out by both actual shooting results and by experience in FoF training. Real people aren't cardboard targets.

Plenty of guys have survived more than a dozen hits from 9mm too. And in plenty of cases several from 9mm and walked in to the ER under their own power. I absolutely agree 22 is drastically lower energy and wounding potential. Shot placement still matters for any caliber and I’d rather something I can shoot well with less oomph than something with more oomph I can’t shoot well. Why I wouldn’t carry anything more than a 9mm. But I also wouldn’t carry a 22. I do carry a 32acp
Sometimes but that’s because I don’t own a subcompact 9mm right now (or 380).

Now a full size gun would be a different story. There I can handle a lot more power. But heck, it’s the same story even with wilderness protection. If I have to go light, not a chance I’d carry anything stouter than a snub nose 44 mag. Even that if the bear is right there on me, I am probably not getting more than one shot from a 44. But a 454, 460, 500, fat chance. At least the snub 44 I might have a chance at a second shot. Heck, if I was carrying full size, I’d go with my Glock 21 loaded with 45 super over my 6” 44 mag. I can shoot both really accurate, but I can put two down range for every one from my 6” 44. Both in accurate rate of fire, wild rate of fire, and capacity.

 

[4g64loser]

Plenty of guys have survived more than a dozen hits from 9mm too. And in plenty of cases several from 9mm and walked in to the ER under their own power. I absolutely agree 22 is drastically lower energy and wounding potential. Shot placement still matters for any caliber and I’d rather something I can shoot well with less oomph than something with more oomph I can’t shoot well. Why I wouldn’t carry anything more than a 9mm. But I also wouldn’t carry a 22. I do carry a 32acp
Sometimes but that’s because I don’t own a subcompact 9mm right now (or 380).

Now a full size gun would be a different story. There I can handle a lot more power. But heck, it’s the same story even with wilderness protection. If I have to go light, not a chance I’d carry anything stouter than a snub nose 44 mag. Even that if the bear is right there on me, I am probably not getting more than one shot from a 44. But a 454, 460, 500, fat chance. At least the snub 44 I might have a chance at a second shot. Heck, if I was carrying full size, I’d go with my Glock 21 loaded with 45 super over my 6” 44 mag. I can shoot both really accurate, but I can put two down range for every one from my 6” 44. Both in accurate rate of fire, wild rate of fire, and capacity.

Yep. Plenty of people and animals (even before we get into chemical intoxication) have killed the person/animal that killed them. BP drop is the usual method of expiration.

My personal favorite (I have autopsy photos, x rays, etc too) is a guy who sucked up 14 rounds, IIRC, of both pistol and carbine duty ammo and was reloading his magazine from a box of loose ammo/continuing to fire. He died of his wounds later but was still combative when eventually restrained. Clean tox report. He was just pissed.

A guy I worked with briefly had some nasty wounds from two rounds of .30 cal machine gun fire (probably 7.62x54R). One of the other guys who was present for the incident said the guy was shot and still shitting lead from the belt fed he was on. Guys saw the blood and pulled him down. Some people are wired mean.

 

[Mark75H]

One of my students relayed the story of being shot during a restaurant robbery. He saw the blood and thought it was from the person next to him.

 

[rbird7282]

Yep. Plenty of people and animals (even before we get into chemical intoxication) have killed the person/animal that killed them. BP drop is the usual method of expiration.

My personal favorite (I have autopsy photos, x rays, etc too) is a guy who sucked up 14 rounds, IIRC, of both pistol and carbine duty ammo and was reloading his magazine from a box of loose ammo/continuing to fire. He died of his wounds later but was still combative when eventually restrained. Clean tox report. He was just pissed.

A guy I worked with briefly had some nasty wounds from two rounds of .30 cal machine gun fire (probably 7.62x54R). One of the other guys who was present for the incident said the guy was shot and still shitting lead from the belt fed he was on. Guys saw the blood and pulled him down. Some people are wired mean.

Adrenaline can do amazing things in the human body


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[miles71]

(tired sigh)
Research the instructor and if you don't think the course is right for you don't take the course. If an instructor requires a minimum caliber, for whatever reason, and you don't agree then don't take the course.

TD

 

[lazarus]

Yep. Plenty of people and animals (even before we get into chemical intoxication) have killed the person/animal that killed them. BP drop is the usual method of expiration.

My personal favorite (I have autopsy photos, x rays, etc too) is a guy who sucked up 14 rounds, IIRC, of both pistol and carbine duty ammo and was reloading his magazine from a box of loose ammo/continuing to fire. He died of his wounds later but was still combative when eventually restrained. Clean tox report. He was just pissed.

A guy I worked with briefly had some nasty wounds from two rounds of .30 cal machine gun fire (probably 7.62x54R). One of the other guys who was present for the incident said the guy was shot and still shitting lead from the belt fed he was on. Guys saw the blood and pulled him down. Some people are wired mean.

Along those lines, most Medal of Honor award statements read like a laundry list of both accomplishments, and accomplishments while mortally wounded. Lots of "after suffering injuries from grenade and artillery fragments and being shot several times, [insert rank and name] advanced on an enemy machinegun nest, suppressing it with grenades and rifle fire at close range. Killing 6 enemy soldiers. Seeing their platoon still under deadly fire from another machinegun nest, and while suffering further wounds while crawling towards the second enemy machinegun nest, [insert rank and name] disabled the machinegun and crew with an accurately thrown grenade before finally expiring due to their wounds. Their actions that day under enemy fire, and after suffering mortal wounds, saved the lives of their entire platoon."

Some people just aren't going to be stopped until there isn't a drop of blood in them, or they have a CNS hit.

 

[4g64loser]

Along those lines, most Medal of Honor award statements read like a laundry list of both accomplishments, and accomplishments while mortally wounded. Lots of "after suffering injuries from grenade and artillery fragments and being shot several times, [insert rank and name] advanced on an enemy machinegun nest, suppressing it with grenades and rifle fire at close range. Killing 6 enemy soldiers. Seeing their platoon still under deadly fire from another machinegun nest, and while suffering further wounds while crawling towards the second enemy machinegun nest, [insert rank and name] disabled the machinegun and crew with an accurately thrown grenade before finally expiring due to their wounds. Their actions that day under enemy fire, and after suffering mortal wounds, saved the lives of their entire platoon."

Some people just aren't going to be stopped until there isn't a drop of blood in them, or they have a CNS hit.

That's one of the reasons a lot of guys train to put the first rounds in the pelvic girdle as they get off the X. Especially when armed with only handgun caliber weapons.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

Yes, I do tell students ahead of time that I prefer they use a centerfire semiauto and why, and that there is a $15 upcharge if they only bring a .22 and need to borrow a centerfire to show competency with a gun with more recoil.

I have no idea why you think you would not be welcome in my class.

The state course of fire instructions also do not say reloaded ammo is not allowed, but most instructors require factory new ammo. I tell students reloads are not allowed as well and some still insist on bringing their crap. Rather than turning them away, I warn them before the class that if I find they are shooting unreliable reloads, they only get 2 chances to shoot the qualification and all malfunctions count as misses.

Thanks for letting us know you think most instructors are corrupt.

I have other skills in other trades where I could actually make more money than I do giving classes if it was about the money. I only charge $40 for the HQL because I think the HQL is absolutely corrupt and people should not have to jump thru any hoops to purchase a tool. When I schedule an HQL class and there are a lot of no shows, I still give the class and charge $40 each even if it is just one person. Next weekend I am giving the HQL at a special price of $25 for those who show up for the open house of a nearby gun shop. I have 4 signed up in advance, but if only one actually shows up, I will be giving the class for $25.

I qualified 4 students today shooting .22. All also very proficiently shot 9mm.

Mark75H, I will not make any opposition comments to your posts or Miles or anyone else who instructs.
I do appreciate your message about making the HQL process more palatable cost wise.

I have NEVER shot a 9mm, 10mm, 380, .32, 45 Colt, and a host of other handgun calibers.
I learned to shoot mostly on my own and with a life-long buddy.
As I primarily got into shooting for hunting purposes, my main practicing was done with shotguns and rifles.

When I began to shoot handguns, I began with revolvers in 357/38 and a Super Blackhawk 44 mag. I worked my way to learning Semi Auto 1911( 45 ACP), and a Ruger MKII Target .22.

I obviously am not using the 10 inch barrelled, MkII Target or the 7.5 inch Super Blackhawk. This leaves me with a few choices I can consider. A 45 ACP, or a GP100 which I have the most practice with, or use a relatively new animal to me, A GLOCK G23.

Having had some wonderful instruction from one of our members on my first day using a Glock of any kind, he said, he'd advise using this G23 when I go to qualify. The results he witnessed were good enough for him to feel I would continue to proficiently shoot it during a course.

 

[Mark75H]

I agree you must use what works for you.

 

[miles71]

I have many students take the class with revolvers and do very well.

TD

 

[Mark75H]

I have many students take the class with revolvers and do very well.

TD

Do you allow them to load all 6 or 5 per the instructions? Instructions also say to use a speed loader. I have never had a student bring a speed loader.

 

[miles71]

Do you allow them to load all 6 or 5 per the instructions? Instructions also say to use a speed loader. I have never had a student bring a speed loader.

I follow the MSP guidelines for the qualifications, the 5 round relays. Since the reload is not timed some use a speed loader some do not.

The rest of the range day the revolver peeps load to capacity and I have the semi autos match, ex. Everyone loads 6 in mag or speed loader. That way we are all at the same round count.

About three classes ago two ladies showed up with snub nose 38 cal 5 shot revolvers, they shot very well and could reload with their speed loaders faster than some of the semi autos.

TD

 

[Mark75H]

Very good!

I find that most revolver owners in my area are unaware that speed loaders even exist. I have no problems with students who understand how their firearms function and are proficient with them.

 

[FreedomLuvr]

When I took mine they used the lowest power 9mm I've ever felt. It had as little recoil as a .22. We shot at a paper plate from about 8 yards (I'd guess). Anything im the center of the paper plate counted. I was miffed because one of my rounds was a dud. So, I ended with a 24/25. They wouldn't give me another round because I had already passed.

 

[Mark75H]

When I took mine they used the lowest power 9mm I've ever felt. It had as little recoil as a .22. We shot at a paper plate from about 8 yards (I'd guess). Anything im the center of the paper plate counted. I was miffed because one of my rounds was a dud. So, I ended with a 24/25. They wouldn't give me another round because I had already passed.

Your instructor should be audited, that is FAR from the specified shooting qualification.

 

[clandestine]

Adding more requirements to the minimum state requirement is tyrant behavior.

Instructors who take shortcuts to the MD requirements are Patriots.

Those who report other instructors should get permanently blacklisted from the gun community, but we know they wont.

I look forward to the day when training requirements are nullified in MD and instructors have to earn their students business.

If MD ever passes an Assault Rifle Qualification Class to buy or own an AR, I'm handing out certificates for free and without any testing.

 

[Blaster229]

Adding more requirements to the minimum state requirement is tyrant behavior.

Instructors who take shortcuts to the MD requirements are Patriots.

Those who report other instructors should get permanently blacklisted from the gun community, but we know they wont.

I look forward to the day when training requirements are nullified in MD and instructors have to earn their students business.

If MD ever passes an Assault Rifle Qualification Class to buy or own an AR, I'm handing out certificates for free and without any testing.

Aside from the moles the state is sending out taking classes and audit them, then banging them. Those patriot instructors are getting permits revoked from all their previous students. They aren't doing anyone any favors.

 

[FreedomLuvr]

Your instructor should be audited, that is FAR from the specified shooting qualification.

What is wrong with that? The distance? I may have gotten that wrong. It may have been 10 yards, but definitely not further than that. It's been over a year now, so I cant say for sure. The paper plates? I still laugh at that considering the cost and size of the class. However, their training was fantastic for the time and class size. They ensured everyone knew how to draw. Had training guns to learn basic functions. They also really hit on the nitty gritty about the MD legal system and consequences of a self defense action. This was right after Bruen and they said they were in a learning curve as well. Going from mainly police (who knew how to shoot proficiently) to any swinging dick off the street.

 

[rbird7282]

What is wrong with that? The distance? I may have gotten that wrong. It may have been 10 yards, but definitely not further than that. It's been over a year now, so I cant say for sure. The paper plates? I still laugh at that considering the cost and size of the class. However, their training was fantastic for the time and class size. They ensured everyone knew how to draw. Had training guns to learn basic functions. They also really hit on the nitty gritty about the MD legal system and consequences of a self defense action. This was right after Bruen and they said they were in a learning curve as well. Going from mainly police (who knew how to shoot proficiently) to any swinging dick off the street.

Go read the proper course of fire for the MD HGP.
I’ll give you a hint, it doesn’t involve a paper plate and it’s shot from different distances


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