Wanted : FFLs Please explain....

[Mark75H]

During the HB281 fiasco, there was much talk about MD not using NICS. So do they or not? Also what does MSP do to gain NOT DISAPPROVED on a application? What is the procedure?

They use it, but not EXCLUSIVELY ... they use NICS and about 15 other databases

The reason MSP doesn't use NICS exclusively is that 10 or 20 MD agencies that should report data to NICS in a timely fashion either don't do it quickly or just don't do it at all. Everyone everywhere would be better served and safer if those MD agencies DID report to NICS in a timely manor ... that way people who really should not have access to firearms can't get one by simply moving out of state as is possible at this time.

MD's political bosses chose to restrict access by law abiding MD citizens over safety of all US citizens. Completely hypocritical.

 

[ELEMENT94]

For non-regulated, the FFL runs NICS directly. In the case of regulated, MSP is the one who runs the NICS. I think what you're referring to with SB281 is the fact that Maryland doesn't report a lot of information to NICS that they probably should, thus requiring the MSP to look up that information separately. There are ~17 databases (you can find the list elsewhere on this forum) that the MSP checks to verify, and those databases include NICS as well as the local info that may disqualify you but that wouldn't be reported to the FBI (NICS).

So the info in the 17 DBs is not inclusive in a NICS check?

Above post just answered.

 

[Ranchero50]

But what exactly is "their thing"?

http://delegatemike.com/?p=3623

 

[rob-cubed]

During the HB281 fiasco, there was much talk about MD not using NICS. So do they or not? Also what does MSP do to gain NOT DISAPPROVED on a application? What is the procedure?

MD uses NICs. But we one of a handful of states that requires someone who is not the Federally-approved FFL to be the point of contact (POC) for NICs some of the time. In our case, for anything considered regulated you file a local 77r in addition to the Federal 4473. The MSP searches a few databases, "not disapproves" you and make the NICs call themselves. Then pass the approval number back to the FFL to file on the Federal form 4473.

The issue here is that while the dealer can make a NICs call themselves, they can't circumvent state POC policy completely, especially in the case of handguns. The MSP is ultimately failing to issue a timely "disapprove" within 7 days as required by law. State law says any dealer can release on the 8th day with no response, but this does not protect FFLs from criminal prosecution nor does it excuse them from Federal scrutiny by releasing without a NICs approval number. Clear as muddy water?

Essentially, FFLs releasing on the 8th day are doing it because they feel it is the best thing to do for their business. Those that aren't, also feel it is the best thing to do. I know who I will be giving my business to.

 

[dblas]

But what exactly is "their thing"?

Start here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=88132

Databases used is here: http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=2458474&postcount=48

Search function is your friend...

 

[04RWon]

Here is all the information I received from my research. Please, please, PLEASE! Challenge my information and use the numbers and email address to contact these people and verify the information. It does not get any easier that this.

Quick summary:
-MD law requires 7 days from the day the paperwork is submitted until the day the firearm is picked up.
-MSP has 7 days to issue a disapproval. If there is no response within 7 days, the firearm may be released.
-Federal law requires 3 days to receive a response for NICS. If no response is received, the firearm may be released.
-It is MSP's problem to retrieve a firearm from a prohibited person. This is not a kick down the door at midnight process. MSP will contact the person and ask who they would like to transfer the firearm too. (Im sure if someone on the FBI's most wanted list bought a firearm the door kicking may be an option)
-MD law automatically puts you in compliance with Federal law.




ATF:

On 5/1/2013, I spoke with the ATF. I called 202-648-7090 EXT 5. I was transferred the voicemail for a "Specialist". I received a call back from the phone number 202-648-9999. He confirmed that MSP is correct, after 7 days the firearms may be released. He explained that MD law is more restrictive than Federal. So as long as the FFL is compliant with MD, he is ok. He also confirmed that it IS MSP and ATF that will come get the firearm. However, they WILL NOT be kicking down your door. It actually is them saying you cant own it, who do you want to transfer it too. He would not give me his name. He told me the same thing that Thomas Williams from MSP told me. That all this information is on the paperwork, the NICS website, and I believe the ATF website as well. He also said this is all compliant within the Brady Law. He wont give anything on official letterhead because its already printed in the laws. REPEAT THIS IS ALREADY PRINTED IN THE CURRENT LAWS. HE COULD NOT STRESS TO ME ENOUGH THAT FFL'S SHOULD KNOW THESE LAWS SINCE THEY ARE SUCH A BIG DEAL FOR THEIR BUISNESS.


MSP

Here are the emails I exchanged with Thomas Williams from MSP. You can see his email address, the date, and time of the emails. Please, feel free to challenge this info and contact him yourself.

Why dont you have your ffl call?

On Apr 30, 2013 9:21 PM, <xxx@yahoo.com> wrote:
I appreciate your assistance. Just one more question. I just want to be clear. This means that a NICS transaction number has not been aquired by the 7th day and its still legal for the FFL to release the regulated firearm. I know this is slightly repetitive to what I have asked but this is basically how my FFL asked me to word it.
Thanks,
John


On Apr 30, 2013, at 21:03, Thomas Williams -State Police- <thomas.williams@maryland.gov> wrote:

The ffl is well aware of the law. He knows what he is doing and in his defense he does not wish to release a firearm unless he has some assurances the person is not prohibited. Your ffl already has the phone number for the Licensing Division as well as the contact persons information. He is certainly welcome to call me but he already knows the answers.
Tom

On Apr 30, 2013 8:30 PM, <xxxx@yahoo.com> wrote:
Thank you for the reply. Would it be possible to recieve that on a document to show to my FFL? Or possibly a contact phone number incase they have any questions?
Thanks,
John


On Apr 30, 2013, at 19:51, Thomas Williams -State Police- <thomas.williams@maryland.gov> wrote:

That is correct. A licensed firearms dealer may release the firearm after 7 days if they have not received a hold or disapproval from the MSP.

On Apr 30, 2013 4:45 PM, <xxxx@yahoo.com> wrote:
Good afternoon sir,

I sent an email to you previously, however I'm not sure that it went through. If it did, I'm sorry to have sent this one as well. I am inquiring about a email that was posted that is said to be from you. The email states that Maryland FFL's may release a regulated firearm after the 7 day wait without getting a response from Maryland State Police. I dont believe everything I see on the internet and wanted to go to the source to verify the information. If this is true, would it be possible to get official documentation, perhaps on Maryland State Police letterhead and get it to FFL's? I would also like volunteer my services to assist in any way of getting this information out there or assisting in any way with the transfer application process. Thank you for your time, and I hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks,
John

 

[woodstock]

please read post#16, again. it is the way it is.

 

[Ab_Normal]

please read post#16, again. it is the way it is.

Good insight in post 26 too.

 

[04RWon]

please read post#16, again. it is the way it is.

See quote below. Also check paperwork, and all sources mentioned in post 26

Good insight in post 26 too.

What he said

 

[hvymax]

So explain why any of us should deal with an FFL who isn't releasing on the 8th day.

 

[Benanov]

So explain why any of us should deal with an FFL who isn't releasing on the 8th day.

Because you've already dealt with them. In my case, the FFL *is* on the nice list, but requires something I don't have - a previous ND or DC designation.

Considering this is my first regulated firearm...I'm just going to have to sit on it.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

So explain why any of us should deal with an FFL who isn't releasing on the 8th day.

Some don't have a choice at this point because of cost.

In my case, my hostage is sitting at Bass Pro.

It is going to cost me an additional 100 dolla to affect a release of the hostage.

I made it perfectly clear that they will never receive one more penny from me.

Not that they'll care.

No more Country Music Hell for me.


P.S. No offense to those who enjoy country music.

 

[erwos]

There's another wrinkle here that some of you are missing: Maryland has tougher standards for buying/owning a regulated gun than many other states. You can pass NICs while failing the Maryland check for the same crime.

 

[Gbh]

Paperwork sent to MSP will sit in a pile for weeks until someone gets to it which means most likely, a NICS will not be run within 7 days.

The 3 day federal clock can't start until the NICS is initiated. Think about it, the feds need to be aware of the transaction and have a chance to run the buyer within that "3 days for a response"!

FFL's releasing on the 8th day and running their own NICS seem to understand this and are running a NICS to cover themselves on the federal level.

FFL's releasing on the 8th day without running a NICS are doing so understanding that most likely, a NICS has not been run by MSP on that person walking out the door with a firearm.

Sure, Maryland is responsible to be timely and run the NICS. The FFL could just tell the feds that they gave the paperwork to MSP and MSP didn't follow through so it's not their problem............. And I can tell the IRS that i gave my tax return to my wife to mail so it's not my problem that they never received it. Yeah, that'll work.

Read Hafer's post in the IP setion about how they are releasing. Tim explains it quite well. He doesn't want to release in situations where no background has been run.

 

[Mark75H]

There was a quote from MSP a couple weeks ago that they do run NICS almost right away ... and again if its been over a month before the ND goes out. If FFL's run them for the same transaction, there's a chance that its actually done 3 times on one gun.

Paperwork sent to MSP will sit in a pile for weeks until someone gets to it which means most likely, a NICS will not be run within 7 days.

The 3 day federal clock can't start until the NICS is initiated. Think about it, the feds need to be aware of the transaction and have a chance to run the buyer within that "3 days for a response"!

FFL's releasing on the 8th day and running their own NICS seem to understand this and are running a NICS to cover themselves on the federal level.

FFL's releasing on the 8th day without running a NICS are doing so understanding that most likely, a NICS has not been run by MSP on that person walking out the door with a firearm.

Sure, Maryland is responsible to be timely and run the NICS. The FFL could just tell the feds that they gave the paperwork to MSP and MSP didn't follow through so it's not their problem............. And I can tell the IRS that i gave my tax return to my wife to mail so it's not my problem that they never received it. Yeah, that'll work.

Read Hafer's post in the IP setion about how they are releasing. Tim explains it quite well. He doesn't want to release in situations where no background has been run.

 

[Ab_Normal]

Paperwork sent to MSP will sit in a pile for weeks until someone gets to it which means most likely, a NICS will not be run within 7 days.

The 3 day federal clock can't start until the NICS is initiated. Think about it, the feds need to be aware of the transaction and have a chance to run the buyer within that "3 days for a response"!

FFL's releasing on the 8th day and running their own NICS seem to understand this and are running a NICS to cover themselves on the federal level.

FFL's releasing on the 8th day without running a NICS are doing so understanding that most likely, a NICS has not been run by MSP on that person walking out the door with a firearm.

Sure, Maryland is responsible to be timely and run the NICS. The FFL could just tell the feds that they gave the paperwork to MSP and MSP didn't follow through so it's not their problem............. And I can tell the IRS that i gave my tax return to my wife to mail so it's not my problem that they never received it. Yeah, that'll work.

Read Hafer's post in the IP setion about how they are releasing. Tim explains it quite well. He doesn't want to release in situations where no background has been run.

The federal clock starts when the FFL forwards the applicants information to NICS whether it is through the NICS system itself or an ATF approved POC such as the MSP.

 

[Pinecone]

State law says any dealer can release on the 8th day with no response, but this does not protect FFLs from criminal prosecution nor does it excuse them from Federal scrutiny by releasing without a NICs approval number..

What criminal prosecution? They have followed the law.

NICS only requires waiting 3 days for a response. BATF has reiterated this several times, as has been reported many times on this forum.

 

[swinokur]

Yep. If MSP doesn't conduct the NICS check during the 7 day waiting period, that's MSP's problem. The FFL faxed the 77r as soon as the sale was made. The FFL has no way of knowing when MSP actually does the NICS check AFAIK. The law was written with the assumption that MSP would conduct the check in 7 days. The FFL is not responsible for the delay. If the FBI has a beef, it's with MSP, not an FFL.

Just my .02