Training concepts for the older set

[teratos]

So far I haven't wanted a dime from anyone.

People need to read this…twice.

Despite his online persona, Blaster has consistently offered to meet people at the range. He shows up for those who take him up on it. It’s a very worthwhile venture. My shooting notably improved after one day out. He’s a patient teacher

Someday he’ll let me be outside spoon.

 

[erwos]

Green Ops, JDC, TOC, FPF, and probably others I'm forgetting offer a bunch of evening and single day classes. There are tons of options. This is the golden age of training if you're anywhere near NoVA or willing to drive there. All you gotta do is make the commitment a few months in advance, pay up, and then go there. It's just not a big deal, and you can do most of these classes with minimal guns and gear.

But, of course, here's the other secret: taking a single 1-2 day class doesn't really do anything for you long-term if you aren't consistently practicing and challenging yourself. You need to be out there doing the matches, going to the practices, and pushing your limits. Yeah, if you're 70-80, you may not be posting up the fastest times. It's fine. Showing up and going for it is the key. Pistols, in particular, are a very perishable skill. A two month break will degrade your cold start performance significantly.

 

[rambling_one]

People need to read this…twice.

Despite his online persona, Blaster has consistently offered to meet people at the range. He shows up for those who take him up on it. It’s a very worthwhile venture. My shooting notably improved after one day out. He’s a patient teacher

Someday he’ll let me be outside spoon.

I read everything Blaster posts, and copy many of them for future reference. Just yesterday I practiced his suggestions for point shooting, albeit in the garage...they worked. Next range time I plan to give 'em a go.

 

[Blaster229]

Green Ops, JDC, TOC, FPF, and probably others I'm forgetting offer a bunch of evening and single day classes. There are tons of options. This is the golden age of training if you're anywhere near NoVA or willing to drive there. All you gotta do is make the commitment a few months in advance, pay up, and then go there. It's just not a big deal, and you can do most of these classes with minimal guns and gear.

But, of course, here's the other secret: taking a single 1-2 day class doesn't really do anything for you long-term if you aren't consistently practicing and challenging yourself. You need to be out there doing the matches, going to the practices, and pushing your limits. Yeah, if you're 70-80, you may not be posting up the fastest times. It's fine. Showing up and going for it is the key. Pistols, in particular, are a very perishable skill. A two month break will degrade your cold start performance significantly.

Sounds good. There you go throwing those names around again. What isn't "Just a big deal" to you, may be to others. Pretty arrogant to say that actually.
You are so far removed of what your everyday, normal, average Joe citizen would like with just needing a scintilla of knowledge.
Here's the rub, no one will ever make 10k a year round count to "stay sharp".
Not everyone wants to "run kit" with hard weekend class chargers like yourself. People get intimidated and don't feel comfortable in those settings.
Not everyone needs to get John Wick ability.
People don't care about split times.
Some may just need to literally know how to not point a gun at someone when moving. Stuff that doesn't require a day long class and a lunch break.
Some may just need someone to ask "What do you think you need help with or to work on?" Not everything has to be a structured class.

I have a buddy of mine who, in addition to his W&C classes, offers a simple 2 hour class on such a thing. Basic drawing, gun safety, and some shooting on one of those laser things. No ego, no intimidation and a lot of patience. $175 and local. He gets plenty of business.
Learning to handle a gun doesn't always require having to shoot that gun.

 

[TI-tick]

Exactly this plus what about, say, a person with some disabilities that hinder their getting around. Let’s say a fake hip and s fake ankle and permanent nerve damage that greatly reduces their balance but they’re still mobile enough to drive and work every day and do some grocery shopping and goes out and about as best he can on weekends with his wife? Oh and gets tired easily from say some cancer

What could be worked out for a person like that

This sounds like a reasonable accommodation type of thing.
Interactive process between the trainee and trainer.
Identify the essential functions and the marginal functions.
Focus on mutually overcoming obstacles to ensure the essentials functions are achieved.
If the essential functions can't be achieved, after due diligence, then it is what it is; but the process still needs to be done.

Anyone doing any business who can't identify this and work to accommodate (document attempts) is asking for ADA trouble. IANAL but I've worked for a good bit in the reasonable accommodation arena.

Plus, it's good business sense and the right thing to do.

And I would not suggest a class for only disabled people.

 

[erwos]

Sounds good. There you go throwing those names around again. What isn't "Just a big deal" to you, may be to others. Pretty arrogant to say that actually.
You are so far removed of what your everyday, normal, average Joe citizen would like with just needing a scintilla of knowledge.
Here's the rub, no one will ever make 10k a year round count to "stay sharp".
Not everyone wants to "run kit" with hard weekend class chargers like yourself. People get intimidated and don't feel comfortable in those settings.
Not everyone needs to get John Wick ability.
People don't care about split times.
Some may just need to literally know how to not point a gun at someone when moving. Stuff that doesn't require a day long class and a lunch break.
Some may just need someone to ask "What do you think you need help with or to work on?" Not everything has to be a structured class.

Those evening classes require no movement, no one gives a shit about your splits, and no one is being "John Wick". You'd know this if you read any of my AARs about them, incidentally. What you're describing is not a class, it's 1:1 training, which is a fine thing I've also indulged in. (Also, incidentally, a thing "those names" you're so scared of hearing tend to offer.)

Since you've now devolved into name-calling, just do me a simple favor of answering the following question: when's the last time you took a shooting class that wasn't related to licensure on your own dime? You can trivially find out the answer for me, of course.

ETA: I've never taken a 2 day weekend course. Only taken a single 2 day course ever, in fact.

 

[hdatontodo]

As I'm thinking about old and feeble people taking training, I am thinking about people who can't negotiate a 4-way stop on their way to a weekday opening of Total Wine. Wait, wait, is it my turn to shoot back?

 

[TI-tick]

As I'm thinking about old and feeble people taking training, I am thinking about people who can't negotiate a 4-way stop on their way to a weekday opening of Total Wine. Wait, wait, is it my turn to shoot back?

Old, "feeble", and disabled people have 2A rights also.
They might not be able to scale a two-story building, but they do have abilities.
Training should match the hatch.

 

[Blaster229]

Old, "feeble", and disabled people have 2A rights also.
They might not be able to scale a two-story building, but they do have abilities.
Training should match the hatch.

I've assisted my friend who used to be the host of PD TV on a disabled person episode. It mostly concentrated on the wheelchair bound inside the home.

 

[Blaster229]

Those evening classes require no movement, no one gives a shit about your splits, and no one is being "John Wick". You'd know this if you read any of my AARs about them, incidentally. What you're describing is not a class, it's 1:1 training, which is a fine thing I've also indulged in. (Also, incidentally, a thing "those names" you're so scared of hearing tend to offer.)

Since you've now devolved into name-calling, just do me a simple favor of answering the following question: when's the last time you took a shooting class that wasn't related to licensure on your own dime? You can trivially find out the answer for me, of course.

ETA: I've never taken a 2 day weekend course. Only taken a single 2 day course ever, in fact.

The fact that you said "Licensure" tells me you take yourself way too serious.

You might put a lot of stock in having some sort of instructor patch, but I don't. I'll defer to my training and experience.

You know, I might start a blog to satisfy my ego.

 

[smokey]

This whole thread is what my training concept would also have. In addition to the standard fare, having training that can be geared to older and couples.

After a day of teaching, my body often identifies as elderly. That sounds like an interesting class concept for anyone. It'd be good to have in your mental file folder if you're ever physically limited due to injury or any other reason. It may even be ideal for a woman to take BEFORE getting preggers so she can be ready as her body slows down.

In my day job, it'd be along the lines of "adapted physical education". For instance, how to teach rope jumping to a kid in a wheelchair or juggling to a kid missing a hand.

It would be neat to have a specialized class for overcoming physical limitations to shooting and defense as a whole. A good teacher kind've differentiates instruction to each individual anyway, but this would go beyond the normal differentiated feedback and get into the realm of complete adaptations.

 

[hogarth]

I'm not sure where the idea came from that those of us who take classes want to be John Wick or some kind of super commando. Far from it. And I've never taken a class that even remotely advertises itself to turn its students into such mythical beasts. If any classes did, I'd be running the other way.

The OP was originally talking about Karl Rehn's model for classes. Karl does 4 hour blocks many times per week (Pistol 1, 2, 3, 4, or whatever he calls them). Someone can take 1 one week, 2 a month later, 3 six months later, and 4 a month after that. Sort of, when they have time and $, they go.

Unfortunately, Karl is based in Austin, Texas. When he comes up this way, as he will in June, he just does three 8-hour classes to make it financially viable for him. But his home-based business model is an awesome one, and Karl does quite well down there. Has his own range/facility, etc.

So the question is, will anyone in MD model their own business similar to Karl's? Does anyone now?

Erwos brings up a good point that JDC and Green Ops offer their "clinics" at the NRA range in NoVa. I believe these are 4 hours and within striking distance of most Marylanders. And they aren't expensive. They and FPF also offer a variety of one-day, 8-hour classes, which I personally like because then I still get half a weekend with family AND no need to get a hotel room. I've seen plenty of older folks in these classes. No one is running up stairs, rappelling from towers, etc. If they get tired or overheated, they sit. No one cares. I've helped a few such dudes out in classes. I almost passed out in a Green-Ops-hosted class myself in 2020. Still not sure why (blood sugar?).

I can't speak for Erwos, but one of my personal reasons for starting a blog was to demystify what classes actually are/what you do in them. Because I had no idea before I started. People would just say "take a class", and I had no idea what was out there (besides my pitiful experience with NRA Basic Pistol). I took some wrong steps along the way, but am ultimately happy with most of my choices and my progress along the way. I realize not everyone wants to drop thousands of $ per year on classes (though I continually marvel about how many firearms people buy.....I haven't bought one since 2018). In my life it's actually easier to get away for a weekend than it is to schedule something every Wednesday, for example.

Being a teacher by trade, I also prefer the structure of a class to "hey let's get together and shoot some drills and I'll give you some pointers". I mean, I write 5 lesson plans/day x 199 school days/year. I like to see how others approach their lesson plans. Again, very personal to ME.

It amazes me that some here seem to hate those of us who take classes WHEN THEY THEMSELVES OBTAINED THEIR SKILLS THROUGH EXTENSIVE TRAINING. No one was born with a gun in hand. I don't see a difference in those who pay FOR training versus those who got paid TO TAKE training.

Anyway, I think the bigger question is that of Bob A (the OP). Will anyone try Karl Rehn's model here? I personally think it's a great model.

 

[erwos]

The fact that you said "Licensure" tells me you take yourself way too serious.

You might put a lot of stock in having some sort of instructor patch, but I don't. I'll defer to my training and experience.

You know, I might start a blog to satisfy my ego.

I'm sorry for using words you don't like, and I'm impressed that you're doubling down on the personal attacks. which isn't what I'd expect out of someone who wants to be a professional instructor.

Really, just do me a simple favor of answering the following question: when's the last time you took a shooting class (that wasn't related to licensing of some sort) on your own dime, and what was it? Doesn't need to be instruction/instructor-related.

 

[Blaster229]

I'm sorry for using words you don't like, and I'm impressed that you're doubling down on the personal attacks. which isn't what I'd expect out of someone who wants to be a professional instructor.

Really, just do me a simple favor of answering the following question: when's the last time you took a shooting class (that wasn't related to licensing of some sort) on your own dime, and what was it? Doesn't need to be instruction/instructor-related.

I don't take classes. I shoot with people who are established who teach non civilian classes.

 

[Blaster229]

It's awesome that your boy came out of the woodwork to "get your 6".
Can't wait to read that AAR. Lol
You guys are two clowns who do nothing for this forum.
Why don't you two guys rent a range and put together a class for the forum?
You associate with no one. You don't come to get togethers.
I'm not really sure why you try keeping a presence here other than your ego and directing people to your blogs.

What have you done for members here, personally? ZILCH

 

[erwos]

I don't take classes. I shoot with people who are established who teach non civilian classes.

So you don't take classes, and you don't actually teach real classes, but you are an expert on what makes for good classes because you trained a few mediocre shooters on this forum to be slightly less mediocre, know some "established" people (not named, coincidentally), and have some govt paid training from a while back. Good to know.

You keep talking about my blog, and my supposed ego, but the reality is very simple: you have a tremendous ego yourself (40k posts? don't talk to me about my blog, lol), and you react with some impressive hostility to anyone who would dare contradict you on this forum. You just LOVE being the expert and you can't let anything ruin that, because your whole ******* being is apparently tied up into being a forum god. You launch into personal attacks, you shit over instructors you've never met let alone worked with or been a student with, and you have definitely never put yourself out there with any video on a timer. You keep coming back to training, what, maybe a dozen people on this forum for half a day? What a ******* hero you are! We should kiss your ass for that! Nothing else anyone else has ever done for anyone else matters compared to such sacrifice.

I bet it absolutely kills you that far far more people give a shit about what hogarth and I write than anything you've ever written in this forum. Maybe that's some ego there, but it's sure as hell fact, too. No one gives a **** what you think, blaster, and in your heart, you know it. They don't know who you are, and your only apparent aspiration as an instructor is to make shitty shooters feel OK about getting to mediocrity and staying there. I guess if I had people calling me out over that, I'd feel threatened, too.

 

[Blaster229]

So you don't take classes, and you don't actually teach real classes, but you are an expert on what makes for good classes because you trained a few mediocre shooters on this forum to be slightly less mediocre, know some "established" people (not named, coincidentally), and have some govt paid training from a while back. Good to know.

You keep talking about my blog, and my supposed ego, but the reality is very simple: you have a tremendous ego yourself (40k posts? don't talk to me about my blog, lol), and you react with some impressive hostility to anyone who would dare contradict you on this forum. You just LOVE being the expert and you can't let anything ruin that, because your whole ******* being is apparently tied up into being a forum god. You launch into personal attacks, you shit over instructors you've never met let alone worked with or been a student with, and you have definitely never put yourself out there with any video on a timer. You keep coming back to training, what, maybe a dozen people on this forum for half a day? What a ******* hero you are! We should kiss your ass for that! Nothing else anyone else has ever done for anyone else matters compared to such sacrifice.

I bet it absolutely kills you that far far more people give a shit about what hogarth and I write than anything you've ever written in this forum. Maybe that's some ego there, but it's sure as hell fact, too. No one gives a **** what you think, blaster, and in your heart, you know it. They don't know who you are, and your only apparent aspiration as an instructor is to make shitty shooters feel OK about getting to mediocrity and staying there. I guess if I had people calling me out over that, I'd feel threatened, too.

Your blogs are not bookmarked on any web browser.
Again. Do something for the forum and not yourself for once.

 

[erwos]

Your blogs are not bookmarked on any web browser.
Again. Do something for the forum and not yourself for once.

I believe they're not bookmarked on your browser. My traffic numbers and real-life conversations tell me what I need to know about who's reading.

I do plenty for other people. I SO matches forum members attend, and I coach a kids' shooting team (which a couple forum members' kids are on, incidentally). These are non-trivial time commitments! The fact that I don't do what you do doesn't mean I do nothing. I'd say it's weird that you keep coming back to this, but in the context of what I wrote, it's 100% how you operate. OTHER PEOPLE DO GOOD THINGS FOR OTHER PEOPLE. It's not just you! And the fact is, I could be doing NOTHING for the forum and it would not make my opinion any more or less valid on this topic! It is not a popularity contest, it is about giving out good information.

You know what? I like MDS and I participate, but if you asked me what shooting communities I was part of, it'd be the local training and competitive shooting communities. I like them because they are all about performance, and helping each other get better. Isn't that what you want, too?

 

[ADR]

I believe they're not bookmarked on your browser. My traffic numbers and real-life conversations tell me what I need to know about who's reading.

I do plenty for other people. I SO matches forum members attend, and I coach a kids' shooting team (which a couple forum members' kids are on, incidentally). These are non-trivial time commitments! The fact that I don't do what you do doesn't mean I do nothing. I'd say it's weird that you keep coming back to this, but in the context of what I wrote, it's 100% how you operate. OTHER PEOPLE DO GOOD THINGS FOR OTHER PEOPLE. It's not just you! And the fact is, I could be doing NOTHING for the forum and it would not make my opinion any more or less valid on this topic! It is not a popularity contest, it is about giving out good information.

You know what? I like MDS and I participate, but if you asked me what shooting communities I was part of, it'd be the local training and competitive shooting communities. I like them because they are all about performance, and helping each other get better. Isn't that what you want, too?

Do you have any experience aside from taking classes and competing? (Combat arms MOS with real deployments, QRF, SWAT/SERT, etc...?) You can be a great shooter on paper and competitions and not be worth a sh!t when it's real and that's more common than most like to believe.

 

[erwos]

Do you have any experience aside from taking classes and competing? (Combat arms MOS with real deployments, QRF, SWAT/SERT, etc...?) You can be a great shooter on paper and competitions and not be worth a sh!t when it's real and that's more common than most like to believe.

Nope, nor have I ever claimed to have any such experience. Nor do I ever hope to be on a two way range.

But here is a thing I have observed training under guys who were in SF, Rangers, etc. who had that two way experience: what they think is important in shooting doesn't seem to be dramatically different than what you'd expect from competition guys. In fact, the go-fast units train quite a bit with the top-tier civilian competition trainers. HRT, for example, had classes with MSP. Ben Stoeger teaches pistol to some high-end units. So they seem to think there is value in this. To paraphrase an instructor of mine who's been there and done that: "competition isn't a gunfight, but a gunfight sure is a competition".

Another thing to note is that certain outfits (FPF coming to mind, hogarth is deeper in this area than me) offer very good scenario based training that is designed to bridge some of that gap. Force on force, as another example.

And, finally, does it really make sense that your high-end shooting skills under competitive stress would just fly away because it was life-or-death stress? Get a little worse, maybe, but a good shooter is a good shooter, and bad shooters aren't turning into awesome ones because you put the stress on.