"The gun should surprise you when it goes off"

[Alan3413]

I take it to mean the opposite. Meaning the gun can go off at anytime when pulling the trigger, so keep it under control and the sights aligned until it does.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

I take it to mean the opposite. Meaning the gun can go off at anytime when pulling the trigger, so keep it under control and the sights aligned until it does.

YES!

Outstanding way of putting it.

You get these and a too.

 

[good guy 176]

I have been shooting smallbore and high power rifles competitively for over 63 years and, yes, one never knows exactly when the "piece" is going to fire. If you can predict the exact moment it will fire, you are concentrating on the wrong thing, and not on the sights, target or follow through.

I know within a quite small window when a particular trigger will release, but there are so many other things on my mind that I am often not conscious of when the gun fires. While competing, too, it is important that the shooter be able to "call" his shots, in order to make accurate sight adjustments, if needed.

I helped coach a high power shooter this past weekend and he could not accurately call his shots, and he sometimes flinches. Needless to say, he did not shoot up to his potential.

Lew--Ranger63

 

[Blaster229]

Pardon me for coming off as brash, but I've never heard that term before. As stated before, surprises are the last thing I'd ever want in regards to a firearm in mine, or anyone else's hands.

It's not brash. It's a good thing you have never heard it or ever had it part of your "instruction" to shooting (pistols (at least)). It's the stupidest thing ever when trying to teach a shooter.

My whole thought for this thread was control of a firearm, specifically a pistol. And you need to know when it is going to fire. When someone is learning to shoot, they absolutely need to know when it will go bang, both for marksmanship reasons and self defense reasons. This way they can be prepared and do just the opposite, NOT FLINCH. So by NOT FLINCHING, you are in control of the whole process. But not flinching because you simply did not know it's coming, well then your a little a miss to the whole firing process.

 

[Blaster229]

I take it to mean the opposite. Meaning the gun can go off at anytime when pulling the trigger, so keep it under control and the sights aligned until it does.

Great understanding for sure.

 

[tkd4life]

I take it to mean the opposite. Meaning the gun can go off at anytime when pulling the trigger, so keep it under control and the sights aligned until it does.

This sums it up, incredibly well. This coupled with fundamental weapon safety rules such as: you are never supposed to point your weapon at something you don't intend to shoot, and not to place your finger on the trigger until your ready to fire, the "surprises" should never result in an unsafe shooting condition.

As others have said, if I'm focusing on the mechanical system of the pistol/rifle firing, then I'm not focusing on the more important things like breathing, sight picture, gradual pressure increase on my trigger, etc.. I only have so much control over the mechanical systems of each individual firearm I have, but I do have control over my shooting fundamentals. And if I practice those fundamentals, I can shoot all my guns well. Not just the ones I dry fire a 1,000 times a week.

 

[cantstop]

I take it to mean the opposite. Meaning the gun can go off at anytime when pulling the trigger, so keep it under control and the sights aligned until it does.

FTW

I am hardly surprised when my guns go off, but when I miss a pistol shot it's always because I thought the trigger should have dropped the hammer before it did.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Oh crap.

Someone dun bumped the thread.

 

[Blaster229]

Oh crap.

Someone dun bumped the thread.

No big deal. People chime in on other threads driveling, not knowing what any thread was about in the first place.

 

[SCARCQB]

Blaster has a good point... Thanks for the post.

The point where the trigger breaks should always be a surprise. It prevents recoil anticipation and flinching.

Old school marksmanship.

 

[clandestine]

I understood Blaster quite clearly and in my opinion, he is correct. People who actually shoot their guns will know that guns trigger, and know when it will break. They get used to the recoil blast and impulse and dont flinch as much.

People get trigger work done, not only to lighten a trigger pull, but to remove take-up, creep, which all lends to make the trigger break more predictable. Some people mistakenly think a light trigger means a more accuracy, it does not. "Suprises" dont equal consistency.

I used to prefer single stage triggers as they "suprised" me when they broke. As I became a more experienced shooter, my experience has shown me that a 2 stage makes things more predictable. I prefer Stock Glock Triggers with some polishing and plunger mods, AR Geissele 2 Stage Triggers, Modified KVAR AK Triggers, and 2 Stage Remington 700 Triggers. They all give me a first stage, and then a "wall". This gives a shooter greater control of the gun and greater confidence with the firearm.

IMO, I wasted my time posting this because people have their mind made up anyway. IMO, there is a lot of instructors that simply repeat what they have been taught, and dont always ask "why". Asking why, is what makes an instructor understand more about what they "know", and back it up when asked by a student.

 

[outrider58]

I understood Blaster quite clearly and in my opinion, he is correct. People who actually shoot their guns will know that guns trigger, and know when it will break. They get used to the recoil blast and impulse and dont flinch as much.

People get trigger work done, not only to lighten a trigger pull, but to remove take-up, creep, which all lends to make the trigger break more predictable. Some people mistakenly think a light trigger means a more accuracy, it does not. "Suprises" dont equal consistency.

I used to prefer single stage triggers as they "suprised" me when they broke. As I became a more experienced shooter, my experience has shown me that a 2 stage makes things more predictable. I prefer Stock Glock Triggers with some polishing and plunger mods, AR Geissele 2 Stage Triggers, Modified KVAR AK Triggers, and 2 Stage Remington 700 Triggers. They all give me a first stage, and then a "wall". This gives a shooter greater control of the gun and greater confidence with the firearm.

IMO, I wasted my time posting this because people have their mind made up anyway. IMO, there is a lot of instructors that simply repeat what they have been taught, and dont always ask "why". Asking why, is what makes an instructor understand more about what they "know", and back it up when asked by a student.

Asking why is how we learn. Add 'why not' to that.

 

[fidelity]

I understood Blaster quite clearly and in my opinion, he is correct. People who actually shoot their guns will know that guns trigger, and know when it will break. They get used to the recoil blast and impulse and dont flinch as much.

People get trigger work done, not only to lighten a trigger pull, but to remove take-up, creep, which all lends to make the trigger break more predictable. Some people mistakenly think a light trigger means a more accuracy, it does not. "Suprises" dont equal consistency.

I used to prefer single stage triggers as they "suprised" me when they broke. As I became a more experienced shooter, my experience has shown me that a 2 stage makes things more predictable. I prefer Stock Glock Triggers with some polishing and plunger mods, AR Geissele 2 Stage Triggers, Modified KVAR AK Triggers, and 2 Stage Remington 700 Triggers. They all give me a first stage, and then a "wall". This gives a shooter greater control of the gun and greater confidence with the firearm.

IMO, I wasted my time posting this because people have their mind made up anyway. IMO, there is a lot of instructors that simply repeat what they have been taught, and dont always ask "why". Asking why, is what makes an instructor understand more about what they "know", and back it up when asked by a student.

Great post.

 

[DanGuy48]

There are probably a hundred ways of teaching things. It depends a lot on the person shooting. If they're anticipating, rushing the shot when they happen to get a good sight picture, then it's good advice to get them to slow down and let the shot surprise them. It's not a bad thing.

Also, it's just kind of a pointless argument to me. When you start the trigger squeeze, do you know if it's going to be one or two seconds before it fires? Almost certainly. Do you know within 100 or 200 milliseconds before it fires? Doubtful. Do you know if it's going to be 1 or 2 milliseconds? Beyond most human capabilities I would suspect.

 

[Alea Jacta Est]

Where you sit is where you stand...

Everything is relative.

Triggers and trigger pull and where the trigger breaks mean much more to folks who shoot often and who are familiar not only with their weapon but the mechanics of their trigger and the art of shooting.

What makes perfect sense to the experienced shooter is just gobbledygook to the novice or non-shooter.

 

[eruby]

This thread reminded me of the joke about the Japanese-American soldier who was put in charge of supplies .......

 

[outrider58]

This thread reminded me of the joke about the Japanese-American soldier who was put in charge of supplies .......

I thought it was a Japanese gold miner...jumping out from the shadows and yelling SUPPLIES!!!

 

[lx1x]

I thought it was a Japanese gold miner...jumping out from the shadows and yelling SUPPLIES!!!

That's so WAISIS!!

 

[miles71]

I've taught a bunch of stuff for a Bunch of years, me any good teacher knows they shouldn't just repeat the same old lessons but instead try to improve them and adapt them for EVERY student. One standardized answer is NEVER the best answer, everyone learns differently.

An example, I have recently changed my thoughts on stance. I had shot one way for the last 20 years and recently saw benefits of changing from someone I was teaching actually. I want to do things the best way not just one way.

I have said to students, "let the shot surprise you THIS TIME" to help with some flinching and nerves. I have pulled the trigger for a student as well to show them how it should happen, I am sure I have said some things even I would think was stupid when I heard them later LOL. The reason I have said these things is because that specific student needed something else to get better. Once they got the idea I brought them back on task, " now that you felt how it was when ti surprised you lets see if you can keep that same control when you know you're pulling the trigger".

I agree with beginning shooters being able to just shoot 100%. When I take a new person out I take a full size piece of poster board with nothing on it, I tell them to aim at it and take a few shots (after some training of course) so they have no expectation of accuracy except to hit the poster. At 5 yards it hasn't been an issue lol.

Gotta adapt your teaching style to the students needs. Does that........surprise you. TD

 

[mistaforty]

I didn't read all the posts but from the original post and a few in between: I see and understand your points but words are for communication and words like surprise and smooth and squeeze sometimes help lay persons to better imagine picture and execute what you're asking them to do. When I still don't get the result I'm looking for I don't always have to change the drill/exercise. sometimes what I'm saying helps the person execute better.. FTR I don't use the word anymore but i did when I first started teaching security officers to fire .38 I wasn't teaching the person "you should have absolutely no idea when it's going to go off" but trying to impart the idea that as in when you're surprised you don't do anything until after the event occurs.