"The gun should surprise you when it goes off"

[lx1x]

Did not know I was making this an expert marksmanship thread. Sure wish users had the ability to delete threads they made.

What is your objective. Where did you hear that phrase?

Our point.. You shouldn't hear that when you're teaching self defense class. The student should be familiar with the firearm (weapon if you want to call it that).

That phrase is for basic.. Basic shooting is not part of self defense..

You either shoot and pray.. Or stop the assailant.

 

[Mickey the Dragon]

Or leave a chamber empty.

Hilarity ensues.

I did this to my dad one day at the range (with his consent) and you would've thought he'd been bitten by a snake once that hammer fell on the snap cap. I thought it was hilarious. He did not.

 

[Blaster229]

You stated: "The gun should surprise you when it goes off"
I am sure MANY of you have said this when "teaching".
So, just putting my thoughts out here. Not any shooting "rocket science", but something that I do think about and "experiment" with while I am dry firing or just handling my pistols to be more "snug" with them.

I HATE when people say this. When you are firing a weapon, you have to have absolute control of every facet of that weapon firing. It going off unexpectedly is not having control and can have dire consequences.

See what I bolded? That's not "handgun", it's "weapon."

No, I did not state " The gun should surprise you when it goes off". It is the thread title. I STATED that I HATE that(statement).

Why did you not bold when I mentioned "while I am dry firing or just handling my pistols to be more "snug" with them."? That most certainly says pistols. See what I wrote? I highlighted my statement that you quoted, just in case.

 

[Blaster229]

What is your objective. Where did you hear that phrase?

Our point.. You shouldn't hear that when you're teaching self defense class. The student should be familiar with the firearm (weapon if you want to call it that).

That phrase is for basic.. Basic shooting is not part of self defense..

You either shoot and pray.. Or stop the assailant.

Why cannot a new shooter shoot some so they can get somewhat used to recoil before they have to concentrate on proper aiming?

Also, how can someone be surprised if they are shooting a revolver, watching the hammer come back as they pull the trigger and anticipate the shot knowing the hammer is going to drop? So, what good is being "surprised", when they aren't going to be?

 

[3rdRcn]

Did not know I was making this an expert marksmanship thread. Sure wish users had the ability to delete threads they made.

The have this skill set called ignore it, obviously that skill set is not in your bell curve.

 

[lx1x]

Why cannot a new shooter shoot some so they can get somewhat used to recoil before they have to concentrate on proper aiming?

Also, how can someone be surprised if they are shooting a revolver, watching the hammer come back as they pull the trigger and anticipate the shot knowing the hammer is going to drop? So, what good is being "surprised", when they aren't going to be?

The part of getting them comfortable is training them the basic. Back to my 80 yo student.

Should I have given her a 9mm from the start. Let her hold it the way she want to hold it.. What do you think the outcome will be?

She either hurt herself or worst. We want student to be comfortable with the firearm not fear it.

New students don't even look at the hammer.. They don't know how the trigger feels..or how far to pull back.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Why cannot a new shooter shoot some so they can get somewhat used to recoil before they have to concentrate on proper aiming?

Also, how can someone be surprised if they are shooting a revolver, watching the hammer come back as they pull the trigger and anticipate the shot knowing the hammer is going to drop? So, what good is being "surprised", when they aren't going to be?

A person would be even more surprised by a tripped sear in double action mode.

There is no two stage trigger on a double action revolver. You can't feel when resistance occurs. You can't feel the release coming.

You see the hammer coming back, but you do not know, precisely, when that hammer will suddenly go in the opposite direction.

SURPRISE!

That's why you want to maintain everything prior to the surprise taking place.

 

[Blaster229]

The part of getting them comfortable is training them the basic. Back to my 80 yo student.

Should I have given her a 9mm from the start. Let her hold it the way she want to hold it.. What do you think the outcome will be?

She either hurt herself or worst. We want student to be comfortable with the firearm not fear it.

Oh my. Reading comprehension please. Who mentioned anything about HOLDING properly? Who even mentioned about sighting? I never have. I am not addressing that. They should know how to grip it before firing.
The whole intention of my thread was about a shooter knowing when they are firing a weapon (Pistol specifically since I was corrected earlier by JimBo), and being in control of said weapon(pistol). Firing and knowing when it goes off is being in control.

 

[lx1x]

Apples and oranges... Is all I'm saying..

The phrase shouldn't be mention if you just expect ppl to feel the recoil or make sure they got control.

 

[Blaster229]

The have this skill set called ignore it, obviously that skill set is not in your bell curve.

I try making a thread speaking being in control, getting intimate with your firearm (pistol) and learning how a trigger feels, works in relation to their fingers, other things and it gets into grip/breathing control/marksmanship shooting thread.
Mind BLOWN.

 

[tkd4life]

New shooters should just be able to shoot for awhile, without worry about aiming in order to help them realize the recoil and know what to expect.

Wait, so being surprised by the trigger release is somehow stupid, but new shooters just shooting aimlessly down range is ok?

Well not too many ranges would be ok with that logic as they pay good money for target stands, baffle systems, etc. Let alone the safety aspects of doing something like that. You should always be aiming your weapon when shooting.

Working CATM, the "let the gun surprise you" thing was something that was used to help people finger f'ing their weapons. I've seen people shoot the ground 10 feet in front of them because they were anticipating so bad.

I personally go by this method when shooting for accuracy. I have over 30 firearms. I don't know the triggers on each of them by feel. But holding a good sight picture and gently squeezing the trigger until the surprise works just fine.

 

[Blaster229]

Wait, so being surprised by the trigger release is somehow stupid, but new shooters just shooting aimlessly down range is ok?

Well not too many ranges would be ok with that logic as they pay good money for target stands, baffle systems, etc. Let alone the safety aspects of doing something like that. You should always be aiming your weapon when shooting.

Working CATM, the "let the gun surprise you" thing was something that was used to help people finger f'ing their weapons. I've seen people shoot the ground 10 feet in front of them because they were anticipating so bad.

I personally go by this method when shooting for accuracy. I have over 30 firearms. I don't know the triggers on each of them by feel. But holding a good sight picture and gently squeezing the trigger works just fine.

What is CATM?

New shooters have this wonderful thing that is inherent in ALL of us, it's called INSTINCT or POINT shooting. No aiming required, just proper grip and point at a target 7 yards in front of you. a HIT every time. So I am not sure what you are talking about just willy nilly letting someone just handle a gun the first time and saying " Have at it until you get used to the recoil".

You obviously don't know me but surely I've never let someone I've taught to just "handle" the pistol they way they feel.

 

[axshon]

I taught my kids that the rifle should surprise them when pulling the trigger. No ND because they know not to put their finger on the trigger until ready to fire.

To reinforce no fear of the gun the first shot fired was pointed down range but with eyes closed so they could just feel the recoil, with me watching that the POA didn't move much. I didn't want them afraid of the bang.

To reinforce flinch I occasionally load their single-shot rifles while they stay in position. Once in a while I will put in an expended round or snap cap and watch how they and the rifle move after a shot.

With pistol, I shoot differently. While the round doesn't necessarily surprise me, my breathing is different and I focus 100% on the front post. I found that on the Glock my speed and accuracy of follow-on shots increased significantly when I learned the feel of the trigger reset. I no longer let it go all the way after firing, just to reset. I don't compete with pistol (yet) and I'm using my USMC training when firing it.

 

[outrider58]

I say it.

Have you watch new shooters shoot.. I mean watch the gun and hands..

Too many times they anticipate the recoil and either push the gun down to compensate.

New shooters also doesn't know the concept of trigger control. They tend to jerk the trigger as fast as they can.

A good friend who helped me learn to shoot proved the trigger jerk/surprise shot to me many years ago. I held the (rifle?) and aimed while he pulled the trigger. Not only did my accuracy improve greatly, the recoil actually seemed to lessen.

New shooters should just be able to shoot for awhile, without worry about aiming in order to help them realize the recoil and know what to expect.

In archery, where a surprise release is demanded, we have an exercise, call it blind shooting, where the shooter stands five feet from the back stop, draws his bow, and releases an arrow...blind folded. It's the best way to zero in on form through the shot process without paying attention to or worrying about aiming at something. A way to work on and develop sound 'mechanics'. Draw, anchor, breath, release, and final, follow-through. Professional archers will go back to this throughout their career when they encounter a specific problem in their form. In firearms we call it flinching. I archery, it's called 'target panic'. Though they may be a little different, they're both caused by the same condition. Shot anticipation. It's deadly to accuracy.

I kinda cruised through most of this thread. I didn't notice anyone particularly mention follow-through. When I'm bearing down on a trigger, I am concentrating on the full sweep of the trigger, from the first touch, all the way to the back wall. Somewhere in between, the gun fires.

 

[tkd4life]

What is CATM?

New shooters have this wonderful thing that is inherent in ALL of us, it's called INSTINCT or POINT shooting. No aiming required, just proper grip and point at a target 7 yards in front of you. a HIT every time. So I am not sure what you are talking about just willy nilly letting someone just handle a gun the first time and saying " Have at it until you get used to the recoil".

You obviously don't know me but surely I've never let someone I've taught to just "handle" the pistol they way they feel.

From your previous posts and our back and forth in the past I assumed you were former/current military. Either way Combat Arms, Training, and Maintenance (CATM). Its the basically the armory for the U.S Air Force, as they qualify all non-shooting AFSC's as well as USAFSF.

And I have personal experience that says not everyone can hit a target 21 feet in front of them, so no, not "ALL" of us have that instinct you are talking about. Again I've seen terrible shooters anticipate recoil so bad with their M9's that they were completely missing the target at 10 meters.

Either way, I guess training comes down to different strokes for different folks. As many people have pointed out, some have been trained with the "surprise" technique. I know I was and I use it regularly when I shoot. It works pretty well for me and I pass it along for others who ask.

 

[Blaster229]

I was in the Army in the 80's. We didn't have that nomenclature.

You have it. Instinct. Point shooting. Absolutely.
If you can point your finger to a computer monitor size object from across the den, you got it.

 

[Melnic]

Who the hell says this? That's literally so dumb I don't know where to start.

Thanks for the post!

I hear it all the time, I think its a trick to get timid new shooters not to flinch when pulling the trigger. I can say I've heard people do this then once they are more in control change the what they are telling them to do.

 

[DC-W]

Pardon me for coming off as brash, but I've never heard that term before. As stated before, surprises are the last thing I'd ever want in regards to a firearm in mine, or anyone else's hands.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

People aren't talking about "Oh crap. My gun just went off without me knowing it" surprises.

And of course it's not a surprise when a person pulls the trigger and a large bang occurs. Cuzz you just shoved uber amounts of gun powder into a small space. With resistance applied to both ends so the gases can't escape unnoticed.

Being surprised is a figure of speech.

Many of us are talking about focusing on every other aspect of the firing sequence. With the gun going bang as the absolute last part of the sequence. Having the bang so far removed from our conscious thought that the bang is a surprise. For lack of a better word.

And to say copious amounts of trigger control and the "Surprise Theory" is just for Newbs and Novices is just, plain, silly.

 

[fidelity]

I try making a thread speaking being in control, getting intimate with your firearm (pistol) and learning how a trigger feels, works in relation to their fingers, other things and it gets into grip/breathing control/marksmanship shooting thread.
Mind BLOWN.

Actually started a good discussion, even if it's expanded a bit. On my favorite pistols, I spend time learning the trigger pull and break, and keeping a constant grip hold through the break. On the handguns that I have which I know less well (or am picking up after a period of time), I do the same mechanics, but will be surprised by the break.

It's one of the big reasons that I like shooting a PPQ - I know when the break is, what the reset is, etc - and it feels exactly the same each time that I do it. Obviously, this should be the same with any pistol one shoots, but for other handguns, it takes me longer to master.

Those of you, who for professional reasons have practiced intensively on double-action pulls, are probably more adept at learning the nuances of different handgun trigger pulls.