The Biggest Of Black Powder Guns Are BBack.....Iowa and Wisconsin.....Reportedly.

[Coehorn]

Thought it'd be fun to stick this in the BBlack Powder section.

BBeing reported that USS Iowa and USS Wisconsin are being returned to service. Reinstated in the Naval Vessel Registry.

BBlack powder guns at their finest.

 

[Threeband]

Those are not black powder guns. What gave you that idea?

They use smokeless, same as everybody else.

 

[Coehorn]

Those are not black powder guns. What gave you that idea?

They use smokeless, same as everybody else.

Always thought they were black powder.

Mods can remove if they wish.

 

[boule]

Those are not black powder guns. What gave you that idea?

Technically speaking a duplex load. They do have a black powder booster attached to the bottom of every silk bag to increase initial pressure and have a more even burn.

 

[Coehorn]

I knew there was black powder in there somewhere.

Thanks for the clarification.

Rumors are flying that the shortage of BP in America is because it's being used in ordinance that's going overseas.

 

[John from MD]

Thought it'd be fun to stick this in the BBlack Powder section.

BBeing reported that USS Iowa and USS Wisconsin are being returned to service. Reinstated in the Naval Vessel Registry.

BBlack powder guns at their finest.

You are a little early. It is not April 1st yet.

 

[John from MD]

Technically speaking a duplex load. They do have a black powder booster attached to the bottom of every silk bag to increase initial pressure and have a more even burn.

Yep. You can see some bags if you visit the New Jersey when it comes out of dry dock.

 

[Coehorn]

You are a little early. It is not April 1st yet.

The story was part of the news feeds that scroll across my computer.

If it's false, again, the Mods can trash the thread.

No hurt feelings here.

 

[Blacksmith101]

16"/50 (40.6 cm) Mark 7​

More powerful than the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark 6 guns used on the North Carolina (BB-55) and South Dakota (BB-57) classes, this was possibly the best battleship gun ever put into service.

USA 16"/50 (40.6 cm) Mark 7 - NavWeaps

www.navweaps.com

From footnote 14a:

"During the 1980 deployments, D846, originally manufactured for the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark 6 guns, was rebagged and issued for use with the 1,900 lbs. (861.8 kg) HC projectiles. The charge weight was originally 571 lbs. (259 kg) for a MV of 2,690 fps (820 mps). This was apparently later increased to 593 lbs. (269.0 kg) D846 charge for the same 2,690 fps (820 mps) muzzle velocity. This may have been the result of the age of the propellant. See Muzzle Velocity Note below. Each Full Charge D846 powder bag had a 0.77 lbs. (0.35 kg) black powder bag igniter (primer patch). Testing was also performed with rebagged 8" (20.3 cm) propellant for HC reduced charges. This gave good accuracy and predictable performance, but it was not put into service use."

Also see foot note 13a.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

My dad worked in the Washington Navy Yard “Big Gun Shop” during WWII. He was a a machinist working on breech mechanisms. There’s a good possibility that the big guns on the Iowa class battleships (and others) had his fingerprints on them. His best friend from there was a coppersmith who probably had a part in other systems on the guns.

 

[BurkeM]

Rumors are flying that the shortage of BP in America is because it's being used in ordinance that's going overseas.

Utter nonsense.

 

[BurkeM]

Thought it'd be fun to stick this in the BBlack Powder section.

BBeing reported that USS Iowa and USS Wisconsin are being returned to service. Reinstated in the Naval Vessel Registry.

BBlack powder guns at their finest.

They were never removed. They remain property of the Navy, on LOAN as museum ships.

 

[joppaj]

I remember being fascinated by the Iowa class ships when I was a teen. When they reactivated New Jersey for Desert Storm I thought it was the embodiment of warfare. Of course it wasn't long after that when more knowledgeable folks explained to me why they were obsolete and why a new battleship hadn't been built since WW2... They're still beauties.

 

[AlBeight]

I knew there was black powder in there somewhere.

Thanks for the clarification.

Rumors are flying that the shortage of BP in America is because it's being used in ordinance that's going overseas.

But is there bblack powder in there?

Probably not.

 

[Blacksmith101]

But is there bblack powder in there?

Probably not.

See post #9. Black powder is also used in many other munitions as an igniter to facilitate the initiation of the main charge. One common example is in the 155 mm howitzer.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I looked , and found even more up to date , and detailed info that that in post #9 .

I'm too Luddite to link it , but there's an unclassified Technical Paper from 1994 in pdf form from Defense Technical Institute .

Vastly oversimplified :

Original Original powder for 16 inch/ 50 Caliber Guns was D839 , that is usually mentioned, in most sources .

Even in WWII, there was experimentation in powder charges , in the context between the original original 2,300 lb projectiles , and the slightly later WWII Era 2,900 lb projectiles .

By Korean Era , was using D846 . And the Korean Era powder stocks were still in use through the Lebanon deployment Era.

By 1990's , the Navy was concerned both about the stability of 40 year old powder , and that with Modern Era 1,900 lb projectiles , performance wasn't optimized . And with 16 inch bbls essentially being irreplaceable, bore erosion was a priority .

Indian Head was assigned the problem circa 1994 ( at least that was when technical paper was released) , with assist from Dahlgren.

*************************

It was cost prohibitive to develope a new powder from scratch, so Indian Head dug into all the powders that Army uses for heavy artillery , and found a current production one that was improvement over D839 and D846 , that was M31A1E1 .

839 & 846 were single base. M31A1E1 is Tripple base, with slightly more energy per g , and slightly lower flame temperature.

Certain amount of Certain thickness copper sheets placed between 1st & 2nd powder bags to reduce copper fouling .

1 inch thick polymer sheet around each powder bag . ( Or was that inside the bagging material, but around the circumference of the actual powder ? It's in the 19 page pdf ) . As the polymer melts , it absorbs enough energy in the melting , to significantly reduce throat erosion.

 

[Bullfrog]

The story was part of the news feeds that scroll across my computer.

If it's false, again, the Mods can trash the thread.

It's false. Stupidly false. No offense intended to OP at all, just to whoever wrote the clickbait article or reposted an old one.

The New Jersey is going into drydock for restoration/preservation work on her hull, that's probably why they are currently attracting attention.


The Iowas are manpower intensive, and the Navy, like all services, are short on manning right now.

It takes 300 people to crew an Arleigh Burke, and approximately 2900 to crew an Iowa.

Would you lay up 18 destroyers to free up the personnel to man 2 80+ year old battleships? And then spend years training them on obsolete equipment and on getting the battleships back in service?

Even if you grant that they were partially modernized in the 80's, that was now 44 years ago. They have no modern defensive or offensive capabilities.

They are outstanding for shore bombardment, in a defended environment, but they are completely outclassed now at any other task.

 

[AlBeight]

See post #9. Black powder is also used in many other munitions as an igniter to facilitate the initiation of the main charge. One common example is in the 155 mm howitzer.

B-Black powder?

I don’t care what post #9 says, continually writing the word black with two b’s? Just having some fun.

Reading comprehension my friend, reading comprehension.

 

[boule]

They are outstanding for shore bombardment, in a defended environment, but they are completely outclassed now at any other task.

There is a big discussion on how effective a BB would be in a modern fleet engagement. The main point is - they are heavy hitters but they need to get into their range first. For such a big gun, the Mark 7 has an impressive pattern (250yds CEP @34k yds) but still you need to hit a moving target at sea. It is much easier if you have a fixed target and can pound it with AP shells, not many bunkers that would stand up against repeated hits. Unfortunately, again, you need enough ammo to hit repeatedly and service life of the guns is around 300 rounds.

The up side of the BBs is their survivability. Most of the current AShM are not designed to pierce armor or at least not that found on a BB and the typical sea-skimming missile would end up in the main armor belt. Even a typical 155mm shell usually does not end up doing too much damage (see "temper temper" incident). Basically, much of the modern stuff dedicated against shipping will do superficial damage only and may end up with a mission kill but is not very likely to sink it.
The downside - think missile and artillery magnet :-). If you want to sink something, it is the carrier or the BB (morale) and the BB needs to get close to shore in order to fulfill its mission. Once close enough, there will be a bunch of anti-tank stuff thrown in the general direction and not to say what mines and torpedos can do to the ship.

After all the developments since WW2, a BB has become a one-trick pony. It can do shore bombardment like no one else and take much that can be thrown its way but anything else can be accomplished by much smaller units at a much cheaper cost. So far, the US Navy has not brought them back.
The replacement for shore bombardment - the Zumwalt-Class "Advanced Gun System"........ please do not fire it for it launches significant chunks of budget at the enemy.

See post #9. Black powder is also used in many other munitions as an igniter to facilitate the initiation of the main charge. One common example is in the 155 mm howitzer.

Not necessarily, or shall I say: depends
The M119A2 charge uses half an ounce of black powder source
Newer propellants come in different shapes and sizes and differ in their ignition system source

 

[Inigoes]

BBeing reported that USS Iowa and USS Wisconsin are being returned to service. Reinstated in the Naval Vessel Registry.

Source?