Shooting with my Walther PPS M2 vs my Steyr C9-A1

[abiebaby]

Evening all.
Have been mostly lurking since I joined the forum ten years ago (or so). I recently started carrying, and purchased a PPS M2 for increased concealabilty. I have noticed that keeping on target at 10 yards is substantially more difficult then keeping on target close in. I don't see to have this issue as much with my C9-A1.
I know that more training is needed (and I have started going to the range at least once or twice a month), but I'm wondering if anyone has any input as to the accuracy difference between the 2 guns. Barrel length (3.4 vs 3)? Sights (C9-A1 has the trapezoid, PPS M2 has 3 dot)?

Thanks in advance for your input.

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[4g64loser]

Not to be a jerk but it is probably not the gun. The smaller (and less familiar) the gun, the more difficult it is to shoot well. If placed in ransom rests, the pistols are likely to shoot about the same level of precision.

Shooting every month is good but you should probably spend some time with a good instructor first. If you practice poorly, you will have to work that much harder to undo the training scars.

 

[abiebaby]

I appreciate the feedback. I will note that I just acquired a laser cartridge and tried it earlier tonight; I was able to keep a pretty decent grouping from around 25 feet with the PPS. Maybe I'm flinching on the trigger by the range; the PPS definitely has more recoil than the C9.

Appreciate the input on the instruction, will try to get that done.

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[4g64loser]

I appreciate the feedback. I will note that I just acquired a laser cartridge and tried it earlier tonight; I was able to keep a pretty decent grouping from around 25 feet with the PPS. Maybe I'm flinching on the trigger by the range; the PPS definitely has more recoil than the C9.

Appreciate the input on the instruction, will try to get that done.

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Laser devices are handy but in our minds we game it because we know it's not loaded for real. Don't get me wrong, I own SIRTs and I use em. I just only use them for certain things and recognize the limits.

Another thing to consider is your shooting environment. If you are shooting on an indoor range, especially a busy one, you might want to consider another venue for "getting to know" the newer pistol.

It sounds like you are competent and confident with the steyr. I used to run an m9a and an m40a1. Great guns. Definitely a bit different than the Walther.

What part of Maryland are you located/doing your shooting in?

 

[abiebaby]

I'm in NW Baltimore area, mostly been going to Guntry recently.


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[4g64loser]

I'm in NW Baltimore area, mostly been going to Guntry recently.


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Good range for an indoor. The only indoor I go to (unless I'm being paid) is in Hagerstown because I am friends with the owner and the manager. And they are cool with me running automatics. Otherwise, I shoot outside.the

I'm pretty far from you. PM member Miles71. He's an instructor out of Belcamp. He's also an industry partner here on the board. I don't know what his availability is like currently but he would be a good guy to work with you. He offers enrollment classes and I believe he does private training as well.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Not to be a jerk but it is probably not the gun. The smaller (and less familiar) the gun, the more difficult it is to shoot well. If placed in ransom rests, the pistols are likely to shoot about the same level of precision.

Y'all made Me look ! Did the comparison on Handgun hero , not being hands on familar with either .

4g64 post gets a little into semantics and context .

No the bbl length per se has little effect on accuracy . i'm confident both would be plenty accurate for expectations / intended purposes .

But those two are two different classes of gun. A sorta compact ish , and a Subcompact . From HH , huge difference in grip available for gripping ( plus weight difference ) .

Yes , with instruction / coaching , there is undoubtedly a lot more potential to be unlocked . But fully equal might not be in the cards .

With my OG 9mm subcompact , I can do a 15 yrds what a full -ish size can do at 25 .

I'm aware , and reached my conclusion about the Subs suitability for likely requirements .

 

[4g64loser]

Y'all made Me look ! Did the comparison on Handgun hero , not being hands on familar with either .

4g64 post gets a little into semantics and context .

No the bbl length per se has little effect on accuracy . i'm confident both would be plenty accurate for expectations / intended purposes .

But those two are two different classes of gun. A sorta compact ish , and a Subcompact . From HH , huge difference in grip available for gripping ( plus weight difference ) .

Yes , with instruction / coaching , there is undoubtedly a lot more potential to be unlocked . But fully equal might not be in the cards .

With my OG 9mm subcompact , I can do a 15 yrds what a full -ish size can do at 25 .

I'm aware , and reached my conclusion about the Subs suitability for likely requirements .

Put a glock 26 and a glock 19 in ransom rests and they effectively shoot the same precision. Done it. Done it with a midget 1911 and a full size 5in government model too. It's the shooter. I'm not saying that it's just as easy to shoot a subcompact. That's why I bring up the ransom rest testing. I'm saying it takes more work and focus to shoot the smaller gun on the part of the shooter.

I carry a 19 most of the time because it is easier to shoot it well than a subcompact and of course it holds more ammo. I don't fault those who pick a smaller gun. I sometimes carry a 5 shot j frame because it disappears under anything. I recognize my limitations with it.

 

[Kman]

I've had a PPS M2 for years and I understand.
It took some relearning and rounds down range to get proficient.
The grip area is small and trying to get 2 hands on it can be counterproductive.
Some times I actually did better shooting one handed.
Son has the Walther now and I'm starting all over with a Hellcat.
LOVE how thin the Walther is for carrying.

 

[abiebaby]

I've had a PPS M2 for years and I understand.
It took some relearning and rounds down range to get proficient.
The grip area is small and trying to get 2 hands on it can be counterproductive.
Some times I actually did better shooting one handed.
Son has the Walther now and I'm starting all over with a Hellcat.
LOVE how thin the Walther is for carrying.

Yeah, the thinness of the PPS was the main motivation, because of the concealability. Getting a new holster for my Steyr (Vedder light tuck with claw), so may end up carrying that except for situations where I need to go deep concealed.

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[Defense Initiative]

Evening all.
Have been mostly lurking since I joined the forum ten years ago (or so). I recently started carrying, and purchased a PPS M2 for increased concealabilty. I have noticed that keeping on target at 10 yards is substantially more difficult then keeping on target close in. I don't see to have this issue as much with my C9-A1.
I know that more training is needed (and I have started going to the range at least once or twice a month), but I'm wondering if anyone has any input as to the accuracy difference between the 2 guns. Barrel length (3.4 vs 3)? Sights (C9-A1 has the trapezoid, PPS M2 has 3 dot)?

Thanks in advance for your input.

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The reason why you are shooting better with the C9 is that it likely fits your hand better. I see this problem often. Many inexperienced shooters select the easiest to conceal over a pistol that fits their hand properly.

Also, while shooting once or twice a month is better than most, your ability will not improve that much. Shooting 50-100 rounds once a week will give you a more noticeable improvement.

 

[Blaster229]

what are your groups at 10 yards? That's very close.

Once you open yourself up to not worrying about perfect quarter sized groups, you will feel better. Especially for a self defense pistol.
You have from the bottom of the throat, down to the belly button, and in between the armpits to make a close distance self defense shot. Anything tighter than that is great. That PPS is tiny. Guns like that are harder to grip properly.
That being said, my experience teaching people is they shoot too fast. Slow yourself down.
The bigger picture here is we are all giving advice not even knowing what your grip is like.

 

[abiebaby]

what are your groups at 10 yards? That's very close.

Once you open yourself up to not worrying about perfect quarter sized groups, you will feel better. Especially for a self defense pistol.
You have from the bottom of the throat, down to the belly button, and in between the armpits to make a close distance self defense shot. Anything tighter than that is great. That PPS is tiny. Guns like that are harder to grip properly.
That being said, my experience teaching people is they shoot too fast. Slow yourself down.
The bigger picture here is we are all giving advice not even knowing what your grip is like.

Went to the range today, and was able to mostly get around 6 inch groupings at 7 yards. I definitely was flinching, but was getting better the more I shot (85 rounds today).

Was taking it slow, waiting a couple of seconds between each shot to make sure I was on target. That being said, I do think the sights may play some (albeit small) role. With my c9, I have no problem keeping on tret with both eyes open. With my pps, I'm only able to achieve some accuracy with using strong eye only. With both eyes open, the 3 dots seem to swim into each other.

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[Blaster229]

Went to the range today, and was able to mostly get around 6 inch groupings at 7 yards. I definitely was flinching, but was getting better the more I shot (85 rounds today).

Was taking it slow, waiting a couple of seconds between each shot to make sure I was on target. That being said, I do think the sights may play some (albeit small) role. With my c9, I have no problem keeping on tret with both eyes open. With my pps, I'm only able to achieve some accuracy with using strong eye only. With both eyes open, the 3 dots seem to swim into each other.

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Not all sights are created equal. I don't know about your brands, but some sights are Combat hold, Center hold, or 6 o'clock hold.

 

[abiebaby]

Not all sights are created equal. I don't know about your brands, but some sights are Combat hold, Center hold, or 6 o'clock hold.
View attachment 447586

Interesting... I'm still using factory sights, but open to suggestions. I think having a different color front sight (tritium or otherwise) may help. Thoughts?

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[Blaster229]

Interesting... I'm still using factory sights, but open to suggestions. I think having a different color front sight (tritium or otherwise) may help. Thoughts?

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I don't think different colors help, but that's me. I have used brass front dots, all solid black, different colors, all of them. Sights don't help you shoot, just aim. You could have the best sights in the world, but they are only as good as your grip will allow. Without seeing you shoot, I am saying it's your grip. It's usually grip 99% of the time.

If you think you are anticipating the shot, the only solution is to just shoot. You don't even have to use the sights. Just keep shooting until you know when the pistol is going to go off. You need to break yourself in. Get used to it until it's not an issue.

 

[abiebaby]

I don't think different colors help, but that's me. I have used brass front dots, all solid black, different colors, all of them. Sights don't help you shoot, just aim. You could have the best sights in the world, but they are only as good as your grip will allow. Without seeing you shoot, I am saying it's your grip. It's usually grip 99% of the time.

If you think you are anticipating the shot, the only solution is to just shoot. You don't even have to use the sights. Just keep shooting until you know when the pistol is going to go off. You need to break yourself in. Get used to it until it's not an issue.

Time to stock up on my fmj....
All kidding aside, appreciate the input.

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[Biggfoot44]

Many inexperienced shooters select the easiest to conceal over a pistol that fits their hand properly.

Yes , this is a frequent thing .

BUT , sometimes an experienced shooter will make a thoughtful decision to place controlling parameter on a size envelope , even if a certain tradeoffs .

In the case of subcompact 9mm , it is a binary threshold of Fit in pants pocket vs not fit in pants pocket . In order to fit , and still readily be removable , there's a harsh size cutoff .

* For Me * there is a whole category of pistols that are neither fish nor fowl . i.e. Too big for pocket , but took small to shoot (as ) well. For me , if it's not going in a pocket , it might as well be big enough to be a worthwhile belt gun .

Put a glock 26 and a glock 19 in ransom rests and they effectively shoot the same precision.
. I'm not saying that it's just as easy to shoot a subcompact. That's why I bring up the ransom rest testing. I'm saying it takes more work and focus to shoot the smaller gun on the part of the shooter.

Dang ! For once I wasn't wordy enough .

I don't have a Ransom , but I am familiar with my grouping abilities with two hand braced to gage accuracy potential . And with having good natured fun with seemingly long distance shooting with snubs / compacts .

But even with being reasonably up to speed with particular small pistol , for * First shot hits , and rapid fire groupings , such that I expect for a defensive pistol * , the laws of physics eventually kick in with XXL hands vs 1.5 fingers fitting on the handle .

* For Me * , with my OG subcompact 9 , it translates to 2/3 the distance . In absolute terms , capable of full confidence to 15 yards still is ( usually ) acceptable tradeoff . But I was fully cognizant to make that choice .

***********************

6 inch groups at 7 yards isn't an issue with the sights .

It's a Lite Beer level debate between relative importance of grip vs trigger control , but the problem is within those two combined .



OR ..... If someone makes their informed grownup decision that that's good enough for them ,they would have to be a family member or good friend for me to try to talk them out of it .

 

[Blaster229]

Many inexperienced shooters select the easiest to conceal over a pistol that fits their hand properly.

Indeed.

My pet peeve......

Worse piece of advice ever that EVERYONE says "Go to a range that rents guns and see what's comfortable to you". That couldn't be more wrong.
That statement needs to be stricken from the human language altogether. lol

 

[Biggfoot44]

It's go to gun store/ gun show and see what's comfortable for you .

Go to a gun Range and rent/ borrow everything you can to see what you can shoot adaquately .