SBR at the range question

[daNattyFatty]

You will not end up in a legal battle assuming its legal. You might get arrested and taken to the station but I don't see how it could go further than that. At that point they are going to find the MSP and ATF registration. Granted I don't want to go that far, so yes I carry my paperwork with me.

Straight from the Public Safety Article:

§ 5-203. Possession of short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun


(a) Prohibited. -- A person may not possess a short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun unless:

(1) the person, while on official business is:

(i) a member of the law enforcement personnel of the federal government, the State, or a political subdivision of the State;

(ii) a member of the armed forces of the United States or the National Guard while on duty or traveling to or from duty;

(iii) a member of the law enforcement personnel of another state or a political subdivision of another state, while temporarily in this State;

(iv) a warden or correctional officer of a correctional facility in the State; or

(v) a sheriff or a temporary or full-time deputy sheriff; or

(2) the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle has been registered with the federal government in accordance with federal law.

(b) Burden of proof. -- In a prosecution under this section, the defendant has the burden of proving the lawful registration of the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.

I see that you're saying that you carry it with you, regardless of your feelings on the topic. But I do take issue with your earlier posts implying that people are good to go even if they don't have any documentation on their person or with the firearm. There is that pesky step of getting arrested and having your firearm confiscated (albeit, probably briefly) and hopefully not getting sent out to your bail hearing and possibly to a local detention center, all before you can have someone bring a copy of your documentation to the station to show the arresting officer and get released without charge.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

(b) Burden of proof. -- In a prosecution under this section, the defendant has the burden of proving the lawful registration of the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.

I see that you're saying that you carry it with you, regardless of your feelings on the topic. But I do take issue with your earlier posts implying that people are good to go even if they don't have any documentation on their person or with the firearm. There is that pesky step of getting arrested and having your firearm confiscated (albeit, probably briefly) and hopefully not getting sent out to your bail hearing and possibly to a local detention center, all before you can have someone bring a copy of your documentation to the station to show the arresting officer and get released without charge.

2 (b) Is specific that during a Prosecution The burden of proof falls to you. Hopefully the Cop is not prosecuting you as thats usually left to lawyers.

You are missing the basic first step of law. Probable cause! Simply having or shooting a SBR or any NFA item is not enough for probable cause unless you are doing something else. Look, cars are stolen all the time but Cops can't stop you just because your car might be stolen. Cars are not even protected under the Constitution. Owning and shooting MGs and SBRs is a legal activity, assuming no other circumstances. What probable cause can the officer have to question you? Nothing. Now realistically speaking we know Cops break this law all the time. So it is easier to carry paperwork with you to save the hassle of being detained until they figure out you are not breaking the law. However my point still stands that you do not have to show your NFA paperwork to anyone at the state level. I guess maybe under 2(b) you may be required to show it in a court setting but you should never get to that point unless their are other charges with it. So no you are not legally required to carry your paperwork with you or show it from any law I have seen. I have forgotten my paperwork before and did not worry about it. I do normally carry it but if I am at the range and see I forgot it, I surely don't pack up and go home.

The other funny part of this... is if the Cop in question is that ignorant of the law, what makes you think he is going to buy some piece of paper making something that he "knows" is illegal anyway? Fake Form 4s are out there. He has no way to verify that form 4 is legit. I can print out a real official looking DEA fake paperwork saying a Cocaine shipment is legal. Will the Cop buy it? Maybe?

 

[Devil Dog]

As others have said, not necessary but wise.

I folded up a copy and stuck it in the storage compartment of my SBR's stock. That way I'll always have it.

 

[HT4]

(b) Burden of proof. -- In a prosecution under this section, the defendant has the burden of proving the lawful registration of the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled rifle.

Hmmm... that's very interesting, and seemingly unconstitutional. I'm having a difficult time squaring this with Supreme Court cases dating back to the 1970's holding that the due process clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments requires that the prosecution prove every element of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

That said, keep copies of the papers with you and save the hassle.

 

[Sgt6402]

2 (b) Is specific that during a Prosecution The burden of proof falls to you. Hopefully the Cop is not prosecuting you as thats usually left to lawyers.

You are missing the basic first step of law. Probable cause! Simply having or shooting a SBR or any NFA item is not enough for probable cause unless you are doing something else. Look, cars are stolen all the time but Cops can't stop you just because your car might be stolen. Cars are not even protected under the Constitution. Owning and shooting MGs and SBRs is a legal activity, assuming no other circumstances. What probable cause can the officer have to question you? Nothing. Now realistically speaking we know Cops break this law all the time. So it is easier to carry paperwork with you to save the hassle of being detained until they figure out you are not breaking the law. However my point still stands that you do not have to show your NFA paperwork to anyone at the state level. I guess maybe under 2(b) you may be required to show it in a court setting but you should never get to that point unless their are other charges with it. So no you are not legally required to carry your paperwork with you or show it from any law I have seen. I have forgotten my paperwork before and did not worry about it. I do normally carry it but if I am at the range and see I forgot it, I surely don't pack up and go home.

The other funny part of this... is if the Cop in question is that ignorant of the law, what makes you think he is going to buy some piece of paper making something that he "knows" is illegal anyway? Fake Form 4s are out there. He has no way to verify that form 4 is legit. I can print out a real official looking DEA fake paperwork saying a Cocaine shipment is legal. Will the Cop buy it? Maybe?

Sounds like you don't like the police..............lol

 

[rico903]

I have a folder on my dropbox called NFA docs. I scan all my stamps to PDF and store them in that cloud folder. That way I can access it from my phone anywhere. I don't bother with keeping "papers" with me when I go to the range.

-Jim

Good idea. Can you fill me in on what a drop box is? Guess I have one with my iphone.

 

[Shamr0ck]

Good idea. Can you fill me in on what a drop box is? Guess I have one with my iphone.

Visit. Www.dropbox.com.

Nothing more than file storage in the cloud which you can access from multiple places. It also will sync files between end points.

If you have an iPhone, iCloud is very similar but limited to apple devices. Dropbox has pc clients as well as Mac clients

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Hmmm... that's very interesting, and seemingly unconstitutional. I'm having a difficult time squaring this with Supreme Court cases dating back to the 1970's holding that the due process clauses of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments requires that the prosecution prove every element of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt...

That was my thoughts too. I don't see how that would hold up in court. Just because they write a law reversing the way law works does not mean it will stand. I did not get into that because I was really dealing with just the police side of it.

Sounds like you don't like the police..............lol

I have no problem with Police. They don't have any easy job and I have a lot of respect for them. Unfortunately they have also become the tools most commonly used to enforce the stripping of our Constitutional rights. There are great police and horrible police. Watch some You tube on people open carrying. Some Police remind you of the KGB, others are awesome and have a deep respect for people's God give right to keep and bear arms. I do think it says something when it comes to my gun collection, I am just as afraid of the ATF and Police as I am of criminals. At least a thief will just steal my guns. The ATF and Police come in and steal them and then throw you in jail and destroy your life. Following the law is not a guaranty that this will not happen. The case of the guy just found guilty in DC for having a Muzzle loading bullet. Ron Smith followed a case here in Baltimore where the police raided a guys house and ruined his life because he was a reloader and had Powder in Milk containers. There are several cases where Police raid your house in the middle of the night and the kill you as you try to defend yourself against the intruders. People think they are safe behind their paperwork or over the top methods of proving their innocents. I have read enough to know that we are all one malfunctioning gun, one uneducated or bad cop, one reason from the ATF away from having our lives ruined for being gun owners. Hell, MSP in the last month reversed itself and potentially made every SBR owner a felon for buying a handgun not on the roster board's list.

So on a personal level I like police and I have never had a bad interaction with them, even if some ended with speeding tickets. That said, I don't fool myself into thinking they are always on my side as a law abiding citizen. Obviously the majority here agree, as we all feel the need to carry paperwork to prove to Police that we not breaking the law when we all have the God given, Constitutional recognized, right to keep and bear arms. If the police were on our side as law abiding citizens, we would not just assume that the police will violate our rights and assume guilt without probable cause and need to carry our permission slips to keep from being thrown in jail for a completely legal situation.

 

[Slowhand]

Visit. Www.dropbox.com.

Nothing more than file storage in the cloud which you can access from multiple places. It also will sync files between end points.

If you have an iPhone, iCloud is very similar but limited to apple devices. Dropbox has pc clients as well as Mac clients

Condaleeza Rice was appointed to their board April 9. The libtards are protesting and trying to bully them into dropping her. If they do, try box.com. You get more space for free.

 

[Sgt6402]

That was my thoughts too. I don't see how that would hold up in court. Just because they write a law reversing the way law works does not mean it will stand. I did not get into that because I was really dealing with just the police side of it.



I have no problem with Police. They don't have any easy job and I have a lot of respect for them. Unfortunately they have also become the tools most commonly used to enforce the stripping of our Constitutional rights. There are great police and horrible police. Watch some You tube on people open carrying. Some Police remind you of the KGB, others are awesome and have a deep respect for people's God give right to keep and bear arms. I do think it says something when it comes to my gun collection, I am just as afraid of the ATF and Police as I am of criminals. At least a thief will just steal my guns. The ATF and Police come in and steal them and then throw you in jail and destroy your life. Following the law is not a guaranty that this will not happen. The case of the guy just found guilty in DC for having a Muzzle loading bullet. Ron Smith followed a case here in Baltimore where the police raided a guys house and ruined his life because he was a reloader and had Powder in Milk containers. There are several cases where Police raid your house in the middle of the night and the kill you as you try to defend yourself against the intruders. People think they are safe behind their paperwork or over the top methods of proving their innocents. I have read enough to know that we are all one malfunctioning gun, one uneducated or bad cop, one reason from the ATF away from having our lives ruined for being gun owners. Hell, MSP in the last month reversed itself and potentially made every SBR owner a felon for buying a handgun not on the roster board's list.

So on a personal level I like police and I have never had a bad interaction with them, even if some ended with speeding tickets. That said, I don't fool myself into thinking they are always on my side as a law abiding citizen. Obviously the majority here agree, as we all feel the need to carry paperwork to prove to Police that we not breaking the law when we all have the God given, Constitutional recognized, right to keep and bear arms. If the police were on our side as law abiding citizens, we would not just assume that the police will violate our rights and assume guilt without probable cause and need to carry our permission slips to keep from being thrown in jail for a completely legal situation.

Well written..... I do agree there are some that wear a badge that Should Not be wearing it because they give all a bad name but there are also those persons who can legally purchase a firearm but they Should Not be allowed to own a firearm..............

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Well written..... I do agree there are some that wear a badge that Should Not be wearing it because they give all a bad name but there are also those persons who can legally purchase a firearm but they Should Not be allowed to own a firearm..............

Thanks, I try and make sure people don't get the wrong idea when I am critical of something.

When I put myself in Police officers shoes, I actually feel very bad for them. How does one obey their oath to the Constitution while enforcing unconstitutional laws. Ultimately its the individual Police officer or Soldier that must choose to uphold the rule of law(or their orders) or the Constitution and sometimes they can't do both.

Who can legally buy a firearm who should not be allowed to own a firearm?

 

[Sgt6402]

Thanks, I try and make sure people don't get the wrong idea when I am critical of something.

When I put myself in Police officers shoes, I actually feel very bad for them. How does one obey their oath to the Constitution while enforcing unconstitutional laws. Ultimately its the individual Police officer or Soldier that must choose to uphold the rule of law(or their orders) or the Constitution and sometimes they can't do both.

Who can legally buy a firearm who should not be allowed to own a firearm?

There are nut case tin foil heads out there that do not get caught and have real mental problems that can legally buy a firearm. Others have extreme ideology such as those in supremacist's groups.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

There are nut case tin foil heads out there that do not get caught and have real mental problems that can legally buy a firearm. Others have extreme ideology such as those in supremacist's groups.

Well if you believe in innocent until proven guilty, this will always be the case. Frankly guns in Tin Foil hat and Supremacist types are no danger... The Tin Foil Hat people will not use them until Aliens come for us. The Supremacists are waiting for the Race war. If you don't believe either will ever come... then those guns will sit there collecting dust forever! So nothing to worry about.

I would also caution you that if we get into the reason people own guns, you have already lost the battle. So long as the are not using firearms (or any other object) to do harm to their neighbor, they should be allowed to own guns for whatever reason as there is no cause to take away their God given rights to keep and bear arms. You have the same right. If you are worried about them, counter by protecting yourself and arm yourself. No body thinks murdering drug dealers in Baltimore City should have guns but they do and you can't stop that. I would just like Government to refrain from taking away my right to carry a firearm, ie protecting myself from these types of people.

There is a price for almost anything... The cost for being able to drive is that some people will be killed in accidents. The cost for our Country is that some of us become Soldiers and die in battle. The cost for living in a free country is that every once and a while a crazy person will get a gun or knife or car and decide to kill people with it. The hope is to minimize the damage. So we have seat belts, we don't outlaw cars. We spend lots on defense, so we will lose fewer Soldiers in battle, not that we become Pacifists. We recognize peoples right to carry guns to shoot the bad people when they do their evil deeds... but for some reason in this case we want to take away the defense in a vain hope to stop the evil. Thats why Gun free zones are killing zones as they only manage to disarm the law abiding citizens...

No, we don't have a problem with people getting guns that shouldn't. We have a problem that we don't execute those who do evil deeds, we disarm their victims and we create black markets, like war on drugs, that fund these evil people.

 

[Sgt6402]

Well if you believe in innocent until proven guilty, this will always be the case. Frankly guns in Tin Foil hat and Supremacist types are no danger... The Tin Foil Hat people will not use them until Aliens come for us. The Supremacists are waiting for the Race war. If you don't believe either will ever come... then those guns will sit there collecting dust forever! So nothing to worry about.

I would also caution you that if we get into the reason people own guns, you have already lost the battle. So long as the are not using firearms (or any other object) to do harm to their neighbor, they should be allowed to own guns for whatever reason as there is no cause to take away their God given rights to keep and bear arms. You have the same right. If you are worried about them, counter by protecting yourself and arm yourself. No body thinks murdering drug dealers in Baltimore City should have guns but they do and you can't stop that. I would just like Government to refrain from taking away my right to carry a firearm, ie protecting myself from these types of people.

There is a price for almost anything... The cost for being able to drive is that some people will be killed in accidents. The cost for our Country is that some of us become Soldiers and die in battle. The cost for living in a free country is that every once and a while a crazy person will get a gun or knife or car and decide to kill people with it. The hope is to minimize the damage. So we have seat belts, we don't outlaw cars. We spend lots on defense, so we will lose fewer Soldiers in battle, not that we become Pacifists. We recognize peoples right to carry guns to shoot the bad people when they do their evil deeds... but for some reason in this case we want to take away the defense in a vain hope to stop the evil. Thats why Gun free zones are killing zones as they only manage to disarm the law abiding citizens...

No, we don't have a problem with people getting guns that shouldn't. We have a problem that we don't execute those who do evil deeds, we disarm their victims and we create black markets, like war on drugs, that fund these evil people.

Show me where any where I said anything about why people have firearms or the reason why they own them????
As far as execute, Eye for an Eye in my book but that is not the conversation.
You seem to be ok with calling out and lumping police in one pot they have no clue about firearms laws, need probable cause to do this or that, etc etc...... But you believe that there are no people out there that have bought firearms that in reality should not own them just because of a clear check and answering the right questions on a form!??
Sorry but, I am done trying to understand how ya think bud........

 

[Dogabutila]

So just because some people may be bad gives you the right to demand papers of or interrogate everybody in those groups?

 

[Sgt6402]

So just because some people may be bad gives you the right to demand papers of or interrogate everybody in those groups?

Who said anything about doing that? Show me where that was said????!!!!

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Show me where any where I said anything about why people have firearms or the reason why they own them????
As far as execute, Eye for an Eye in my book but that is not the conversation.
You seem to be ok with calling out and lumping police in one pot they have no clue about firearms laws, need probable cause to do this or that, etc etc...... But you believe that there are no people out there that have bought firearms that in reality should not own them just because of a clear check and answering the right questions on a form!??
Sorry but, I am done trying to understand how ya think bud........

Well you said Tin foil hat types, supremacist and other extreme ideology types. Well in each case, these people arm themselves for "crazy" reasons. In each case, it does not imply they have done anything illegal. Frankly the constitution acknowledges someone in the KKK or Black Panther Party the same right as me to arm themselves. As a Catholic White guy I would rather neither be armed but I would defend their right to be. There is nothing illegal or technically wrong about having an extreme ideology, so long as you don't break the law. So I did think you were going to people's reasons for owning firearms. If you would have listed Felons, murders and rapist... then in each case they have broken the law already and lost their Constitutionally protected rights. Of course none of them can legally buy guns...

I thought I made it pretty clear that there are some very fine officers out there that really respect the constitution. So your lumping comment seems odd to me at this point. As you acknowledged there are some bad ones too. My problem is that I don't get to pick the ones I deal with, so I must assume as we all do in the NFA community that we might get a bad one and so we carry our paperwork when we should not really have to. Of course I think certain people should not be allowed to buy guns. I hate Columbia, MD... I don't think anyone there should be allowed to buy guns. However what I think does not and should not make any difference... If people have not committed a felony, I can not really think of anyone that should not be allowed to buy guns. Obviously there are those with real mental problems that should be restricted and are. So off hand, not really, thats why I asked you who should not be allowed to begin with.

 

[Sgt6402]

All I was saying is there are officers that do not deserve to wear the uniform and serve the citizens, there are persons that have firearms that should not, there people with a driver lic that should not, & I can go on.

If you think that there is no one with a firearm that should not have it, thats your opinion.

You have your opinion and I have mine.

We can agree to disagree my brotha.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

....
If you think that there is no one with a firearm that should not have it, thats your opinion...

We can agree to disagree my brotha.

I was more thinking legally. Yeah there are certainly those that should not own firearms.

Yes we could agree to disagree but I think for the most part we agree.

 

[Sgt6402]

I was more thinking legally. Yeah there are certainly those that should not own firearms.

Yes we could agree to disagree but I think for the most part we agree.

I would also say we agree for the most part if not totally. I would say the way we both wrote what we wrote was interpereted diff than what was intended.

Enjoyed the healthy chat