Rifle marksmanship for our Soldiers?

[Mason-Dixon Baseball]

The USMC has trained some pretty fine riflemen, history shows that. They taught me and it stuck, many years later I was able to get my appleseed rifleman badge on day 1.

Alex is the Russian lad and he is correct. The appleseed is about shooting. Army bootcamp is about conformance and it is aimed at the lowest common denominator.

Alex was very interesting to talk with... Seeing what he and his family ( and others like them) did and sacrificed to come HERE and what they have accomplished since coming makes ME proud to be an American.... Say what people want about the US, but I don't see any other country where millions are trying to sneak into every year...

No military training for me-- only instruction from my Dad and uncle and I qualified for for Rifleman on every AQT we did over the two days---started at 213 and my high for the weekend was 241, with iron sights (tech-sights) on my Marlin 795--- please credit the gun much more than me.....

It was funny to me how impressed Alex was with my shooting--- he kept asking me where I learned to shoot--- not sure he believed me when I told him in the back yard with Dad! That's what led into our lengthy discussions about gun ownership in Russia...

The Appleseeds are definitely GOOD STUFF!

 

[Kais]

Make fun of 5.56 all you want but even at 500 yards a well placed shot could be lethal, as a 77 grain bullet fired at 2900 muzzle velocity will still be running near 1800 fps and delivering over 500 ft/lbs of energy. Sure, that's specific ammo for the Mk 12 SPR, but that's realistic from an AR platform firing the Mk 262 mod 1 cartridge.

I think that a bigger round makes much more sense at long distance, but 5.56 can still take lives at 500 meters. Even M855 can penetrate a 1/8" of steel at 600 meters.

The average guy doesn't get the Mk262 he just has to make do with the normal M855 62gr round. Mind you you get that in the right spot at 500m and you will still kill a guy. Especially if you have the training and the competence to follow your fundamentals.

just like our first vehicles in in the first Iraq war showed up in olive drap from the European arena ....

And they're still green amazingly enough.

 

[Darkemp]

Make fun of 5.56 all you want but even at 500 yards a well placed shot could be lethal, as a 77 grain bullet fired at 2900 muzzle velocity will still be running near 1800 fps and delivering over 500 ft/lbs of energy. Sure, that's specific ammo for the Mk 12 SPR, but that's realistic from an AR platform firing the Mk 262 mod 1 cartridge.

I think that a bigger round makes much more sense at long distance, but 5.56 can still take lives at 500 meters. Even M855 can penetrate a 1/8" of steel at 600 meters.

Among the reasons the military has begun to rearsenal the venerable M14's for front line service again. For marksmen level shooters who make shots count it makes sense, while for the masses the 5.56 allows them more chances for the same weight penalty.

 

[NateIU10]

When I lived in Indiana, a guy I know was an Appleseed instructor. They made arrangements with the IN National Guard (I believe that was it) to train a group of soldiers for a day or two.

It was originally a test run to see if it fit and worked, which it did. Not sure if they ever implemented it larger-scale though.

 

[Indiana Jones]

hmmmmm. ive outshot Marine POGs on many occasions. every marine is a rifleman...if theyre in infantry. its like the Army. infantry can shoot, truck drivers, not as well. lets keep it realistic. my marine infantry friend makes me look like im blind. same with my army infantry friend. but the guys with other MOS's i have to teach how to break down the platform... repitition repitition repitition.

 

[Indiana Jones]

No, but not everyone is saddled with an M4 either, the standard rifle for the Marines is the M16A4 with a 1 in 7 inch twist 20 inch barrel, if I remember correctly, and you're right, that extra barrel length makes a hell of a difference. I never suggested that the M4 was capable of making decent hits at 500 yards.

So could a Marine with a standard M16A4 firing mk262 mod 1 ammunition make a kill at 500 yards, I'd bet money on it.

Mark

ill take that bet too!

 

[IndispensableDestiny]

From what I remember, the Mk 12 has an 18" barrel. The M4 has a 14" barrel. That's a significant drop in velocity. And an M4 is a 2 MOA rifle if it's new. That's a 10" spread at 500 yards. So you expect me to beleive that someone, during a firefight, can make a lethal shot with an M4 at 500 yards? Are you kidding me?

Jim

Read the article.

Some pop-up targets are programmed to fall only after two or three hits, like people. Troops should be taught to stay on the sights until the threat is defeated: “Shoot until the world looks flat.”

 

[K31]

If you want to read scary stuff about inadequate military rifleman training, read One Shot, One Kill.

 

[eurobuff]

I can't imagine any scenario where you are going to engage personnel at 500+ yards with your personal M4.

 

[eurobuff]

From what I remember, the Mk 12 has an 18" barrel. The M4 has a 14" barrel. That's a significant drop in velocity. And an M4 is a 2 MOA rifle if it's new. That's a 10" spread at 500 yards. So you expect me to beleive that someone, during a firefight, can make a lethal shot with an M4 at 500 yards? Are you kidding me?

Jim

Someone gets it!

 

[JOBU]

5. I carried a 1911 for quarterdeck watches with no rounds in the chamber. I felt like Barney Fife except I had 7 bullets instead of 1 bullet.

Shame on your Gunnery O and GMC. You should've had only 5 rds in the mags. Navy regs - avoid stress on the springs.

 

[Gringo]

I can't imagine any scenario where you are going to engage personnel at 500+ yards with your personal M4.

Afghanistan.

 

[Kinbote]

If you know for certain that all your shots will be at longer ranges than 500m, then a .308 is very good. If you want to be able to engage from 0-500m and beyond, then the 5.56, with 50% more capacity per mag, really shines and it will certainly kill at ranges beyond 500m. The standard M855 will kill through steel helmets at that range.

 

[William B]

I highly doubt that the average jar head is getting mags full of mk262 ammo.

Jim

Actually we do. The MK262 is a pretty formidable round.

 

[Ender]

+1, I never really thought about it until now. In Afghanistan when I showed up there in 09, we inherited all our ammo from the guys we were replacing so it wasn't in boxes. I remember thinking it was odd looking since it didn't have the normal green tip and looked like a small hollow point but I didn't give it too much thought or remember it until I googled MK262 just now. All my mags were full of it, minus the tracers and it was the same with everyone else that was on the combat outpost I lived in (reinforced platoon). I was a POG, albeit one that was attached to infantry, so even non grunts were getting MK262. Had a M4/M203, used the 203 more often so was usually more concerned with my 40mm grenades.

 

[Ender]

While I never had to engage at 500+ meters with my M4, it was always a possibility. Here is pic I took at the top of a "hill" after a few hours of climbing on a patrol.

 

[Ski169]

I can't believe I found this thread only a year and two months too late. It seems like it got a little off track but back to the opener. As a member of the MD Air National Guard Marksmanship Team and as a former Marine, I feel somewhat qualified to comment here. As "airmen", we cannot shoot. I've "qualified" several times over the years with the guard and it's a joke every time. The qualification consists of a total of 50 rds from a standing supported position at a piece of paper approx 25 yards away with different size targets on it to simulate ranges out to 300 yards with an M16A2. 10 of those rds are fired wearing a gas mask. I'm sure a lot of my fellow Devil Dogs remember the KD range we shot on back in the day as I believe it changed since I was in back in the 90s. Our qualification was 200, 300, and 500 yards from various firing positions. That is the basic comparison for rifle. Pistol is almost non-existent in the guard unless you have enough rank on your sleeve or collar and you are too lazy to carry a rifle in theater. Yeah, I said that. I qualified on pistol in the Marine Corps as an aircrew member and yes, not many MOSs did. Now onto what's f'd up with the guard. The "new" rifle qualification consists of the same as it was before with the only change being that they are using M4s with Aimpoints attached. Wow what an improvement on the scores. No one is taught marksmanship skills of any kind. Sight it in, put the dot on the target, pull the trigger and bang. The other concern I have is getting flagged by the muzzle. That happens way too often. And this so called "qualification" is supposed to get us ready before a deployment. It's even worse in theater where people don't even know how to clean/disassemble their weapons let alone shoot them accurately. It can certainly be quite scary at times.

 

[JSW]

Very similar to my experience. My recollection of my Navy qualification training back in the 1980s went like this:

1. On the flight deck of a FFG, the Gunners Mate handed me a 1911 and 1 magazine of 45ACP.
2. I loaded the magazine into the 1911 and was given instruction on how to drop the slide after pointing it towards the ocean.
3. I fired 7 rounds into the ocean.
4. Gunners Mate said "Congratualtions! You hit the ocean. You're qualified."



from a Gunnersmate--

 

[Indiana Jones]

I'll help teach if I can shoot a 240
(I have nothing to teach soldiers....I'd be learning)

 

[Ski169]

I'll help teach if I can shoot a 240
(I have nothing to teach soldiers....I'd be learning)

I do try to help as best I can but unfortunately, it's never on the firing line. According to the air force or ang, I'm not qualified to instruct. Hell, I haven't even "qualified" with the pistol by air force standards yet I shot well enough to qualify for an e.i.c. (excellence in competition) badge during a match last year. Go figure.