Questions regarding driving to the range

[CrueChief]

I guess my question is how/why are all of these vehicles being searched for a "regular" traffic stop. I drive Jeeps so I understand with not having an actual trunk things can get iffy as to compliance with ALL laws but still giving consent to search your vehicle??? Not even the Chief of police could insist on that for a regular traffic stop if all he sees are a couple of bags in the rear of my vehicle.

 

[swinokur]

But an LEO can legally ask to search if he is in the mood to "fish"

Which is why the answer should be NO.

IANAL

 

[mvee]

From earlier posts in another thread, I think that it was determined that even if you were going on an out of state trip, you were not actually engaged in interstate travel until you crossed the state line. If you were going to carry in VA, up until you crossed the state line, you would be in violation of MD state law, however if you were going to VA to lets say attend a gun show(as a bonifide collector), you would be in compliance.

 

[CrueChief]

But an LEO can legally ask to search if he is in the mood to "fish"

Which is why the answer should be NO.

Sure ask away but always the answer is NO. It kills me how thew naive out there with "nothing to hide" end up in trouble they never saw coming.

 

[esqappellate]

From earlier posts in another thread, I think that it was determined that even if you were going on an out of state trip, you were not actually engaged in interstate travel until you crossed the state line. If you were going to carry in VA, up until you crossed the state line, you would be in violation of MD state law, however if you were going to VA to lets say attend a gun show(as a bonifide collector), you would be in compliance.

Thread please? Actually, that leads to absurd results, as it would mean that a MD resident could never (other than the 4-203 reasons) travel interstate with his handgun, no matter how legal it was in the state of destination. I don't know of any case law on this and I am not giving legal advice. But I think it is likely that FOPA could serve as a defense if you could prove that you were headed directly out of state as of the point you left your home. But my caveat (below) fully applies here.

 

[esqappellate]

Over a year ago if the OP was to be beleived, a member here did have his weapon confiscated by an over zealous, and nervous Mo Co LEO. That is a fact. I don't know the final disposition. His error was allowing a search of his vehicle. IIRC he may have had a long gun on the back seat but not sure. He was wearing a range badge. That certainly doesn't even come close to PC or even reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime (RAS) IMO

If you stay in MD, you comply with MD 4-203 statute, not FOPA. That is unloaded and holstered. MD AG has stated FOPA doesn't even apply if you are going out of state because his opinion for now anyway is you cannot "posess and carry" in MD, thereby negating FOPA.

If you go OOS tell anyone who asks you are going to the range. You are then at least for that moment in the eyes of the AG, legal.

Opinions attached.

What are the actual dates of the AG opinions you attached? Thanks.

 

[Broadside]

I apologies for the slight thread drift, but I thought that Maryland law stated that there are no property rights in firearms. I took this to mean that police in Maryland could confiscate any firearm they found and destroy it without any type of hearing or due process.

Is my understanding on this incorrect? Did they repeal this law? Was it never enacted?

 

[esqappellate]

I apologies for the slight thread drift, but I thought that Maryland law stated that there are no property rights in firearms. I took this to mean that police in Maryland could confiscate any firearm they found and destroy it without any type of hearing or due process.

Is my understanding on this incorrect? Did they repeal this law? Was it never enacted?

never heard of such a law. Sounds like nonsense on its face. A legally possessed firearm is not contraband and is property like any other material possession. An illegally possessed firearm is and may be confiscated.

 

[iobidder]

Just WTF are you sneering at? You've wandered off the Reservation, into the Wilderness of "I Don't Know What I'm Blathering About".

Every member of the Associated Gun Clubs is required to wear a Range Badge while on AGC property. The badge costs $150 a year. Many members wear them on their hats or jackets. It's easy to forget you're wearing it while drivng home.

Why is that a subject for your contemptuous sneering? Many employees of government agencies and large private firms are required to wear ID badges at work. I see people wearing such badges in the grocery store. I believe you yourself wear a badge at work. So why is the wearing of an ID badge a thing for you to sneer at derisively?

Calm down skipper, I was refering to the situation of a traffic stop. You see such badges in grocery stores? Now that is amusing, nor would I care then too therefore such an incident of the MoCo Officer (although moco) is rare. Could care less about the so called 'professional' badge. Wouldn't raise a single flag as being an LEO. As far as the sneering, please do not compare a Galls made range badge to an LEO or FF badge, it holds no legal merit as creds in any way. Going back to saying it wouldn't raise a single flag on a traffic stop with me, which is why I am skeptical of the other OP's thread. I will try and keep the sneering to a minimum.

I guess my question is how/why are all of these vehicles being searched for a "regular" traffic stop. I drive Jeeps so I understand with not having an actual trunk things can get iffy as to compliance with ALL laws but still giving consent to search your vehicle??? Not even the Chief of police could insist on that for a regular traffic stop if all he sees are a couple of bags in the rear of my vehicle.

Because they consent unless otherwise PC of another nature.

But an LEO can legally ask to search if he is in the mood to "fish"

Which is why the answer should be NO.

Legal advice?

I apologies for the slight thread drift, but I thought that Maryland law stated that there are no property rights in firearms. I took this to mean that police in Maryland could confiscate any firearm they found and destroy it without any type of hearing or due process.

Is my understanding on this incorrect? Did they repeal this law? Was it never enacted?

False

never heard of such a law. Sounds like nonsense on its face. A legally possessed firearm is not contraband and is property like any other material possession. An illegally possessed firearm is and may be confiscated.

Correct, but emphasis on they WILL be confiscated along with your freedom

 

[MJD438]

Calm down skipper, I was refering to the situation of a traffic stop. You see such badges in grocery stores? Now that is amusing, nor would I care then too therefore such an incident of the MoCo Officer (although moco) is rare. Could care less about the so called 'professional' badge. Wouldn't raise a single flag as being an LEO. As far as the sneering, please do not compare a Galls made range badge to an LEO or FF badge, it holds no legal merit as creds in any way. Going back to saying it wouldn't raise a single flag on a traffic stop with me, which is why I am skeptical of the other OP's thread. I will try and keep the sneering to a minimum.

I think there is some unneeded confusion. The "range badge" is not, in my experience, a shiny piece of funky-shaped tin. It is an identification document for the range in question. What I have noticed on this forum, as well as a couple of other places, is that the "range badge" (the range identification card, required by some ranges to be worn in a visible manner - think the standard policy of business identification cards being worn above the waist, visible from the front at all times) was not removed from clothing when the shooter left the range and was used by officers as a PC/RAS mechanism for searching a vehicle for weapons during traffic stops.

Not stating that I agree with the process or even agreeing that it really happened, but just trying to clear up confusion that is appearing to equate a "range badge" with a LE badge.

 

[iobidder]

I think there is some unneeded confusion. The "range badge" is not, in my experience, a shiny piece of funky-shaped tin. It is an identification document for the range in question. What I have noticed on this forum, as well as a couple of other places, is that the "range badge" (the range identification card, required by some ranges to be worn in a visible manner - think the standard policy of business identification cards being worn above the waist, visible from the front at all times) was not removed from clothing when the shooter left the range and was used by officers as a PC/RAS mechanism for searching a vehicle for weapons during traffic stops.

Not stating that I agree with the process or even agreeing that it really happened, but just trying to clear up confusion that is appearing to equate a "range badge" with a LE badge.

Ahhhh, all clear now, thanks!

 

[swinokur]

What are the actual dates of the AG opinions you attached? Thanks.

The pdf's had no date on them. They are unofficial anyway as per AG Bowen. Guess that's his out if they want to prosecute.

 

[swinokur]

Legal advice?

nope. never said it was offered as legal advice.

 

[Andras]

You should be able to legally transport a handgun out of state in connection with shooting activity, such as target shooting. That was my excuse/reason when I was pulled over and had to show the trooper my unloaded revolver (it was locked in the glove box w the registration). No issues and he even cut be a break on my speeding (62/40 written as 49/40).

 

[Broadside]

never heard of such a law. Sounds like nonsense on its face. A legally possessed firearm is not contraband and is property like any other material possession. An illegally possessed firearm is and may be confiscated.

esqappellate,

I swear this was a bill back in 2002 or 2003. I though it passed.

 

[esqappellate]

Calm down skipper, I was refering to the situation of a traffic stop. You see such badges in grocery stores? Now that is amusing, nor would I care then too therefore such an incident of the MoCo Officer (although moco) is rare. Could care less about the so called 'professional' badge. Wouldn't raise a single flag as being an LEO. As far as the sneering, please do not compare a Galls made range badge to an LEO or FF badge, it holds no legal merit as creds in any way. Going back to saying it wouldn't raise a single flag on a traffic stop with me, which is why I am skeptical of the other OP's thread. I will try and keep the sneering to a minimum.

Because they consent unless otherwise PC of another nature.


Legal advice?

False

Correct, but emphasis on they WILL be confiscated along with your freedom

esqappellate,

I swear this was a bill back in 2002 or 2003. I though it passed.

Can't appen unless they ban them. That isnt going happen after Heller And McDonald. Iobidder is correct. With illegally possessed guns You will lose both the gun and your freedom, see 18 USC 922

 

[Threeband]

First off, who wears a 'Range Badge'? Second if I saw one I would be amused and laugh. Don't think PC was an issue since the OP had the choice to consent. Now the facts, wearing that silly badge has not merit to cause PC.

Just WTF are you sneering at? You've wandered off the Reservation, into the Wilderness of "I Don't Know What I'm Blathering About".

Every member of the Associated Gun Clubs is required to wear a Range Badge while on AGC property. The badge costs $150 a year. Many members wear them on their hats or jackets. It's easy to forget you're wearing it while drivng home.

Why is that a subject for your contemptuous sneering? Many employees of government agencies and large private firms are required to wear ID badges at work. I see people wearing such badges in the grocery store. I believe you yourself wear a badge at work. So why is the wearing of an ID badge a thing for you to sneer at derisively?

I have no idea what you think a range badge is. If you don't know what it is, why are you expressing such strong opinions and insulting people? Did you read my explanation? I think it was pretty clear.

The AGC is a private club which encompasses four large firearms ranges, archery ranges, several buildings, roads, parking lots, a camping area, and wooded areas. It's about a half mile from one end to the other. It fronts on public roads on two sides. There are no fences or gates.

Q) How are we to distinguish members from trespassers?

A)

Every member of the Associated Gun Clubs is required to wear a Range Badge while on AGC property.

Please tell me what you thought a range badge was, why you thought it was silly and laughable. This is what an AGC range badge looks like.

 

[Speaker2Wolves]

Q) How are we to distinguish members from trespassers?

Uhmmm, they'll be the ones with the bullet holes in them?

Just sayin'

 

[mvee]

Thread please? Actually, that leads to absurd results, as it would mean that a MD resident could never (other than the 4-203 reasons) travel interstate with his handgun, no matter how legal it was in the state of destination. I don't know of any case law on this and I am not giving legal advice. But I think it is likely that FOPA could serve as a defense if you could prove that you were headed directly out of state as of the point you left your home. But my caveat (below) fully applies here.

Good point.

Here is one of the threads I was thinking about. There is another one I will try to find.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=377957&postcount=18


http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=826

If you were stopped prior to leaving MD, could the police argue that you are not engaging in interstate travel since you have not yet left the state?

 

[iobidder]

I have no idea what you think a range badge is. If you don't know what it is, why are you expressing such strong opinions and insulting people? Did you read my explanation? I think it was pretty clear.

The AGC is a private club which encompasses four large firearms ranges, archery ranges, several buildings, roads, parking lots, a camping area, and wooded areas. It's about a half mile from one end to the other. It fronts on public roads on two sides. There are no fences or gates.

Q) How are we to distinguish members from trespassers?

A)

Please tell me what you thought a range badge was, why you thought it was silly and laughable. This is what an AGC range badge looks like.

I for one think you need to tone it down a notch, it's the internet, relax....

To answer you about what I thought it was, - just as explained and cleared above. The public ranges I go to firearms instructors have tin badges and red vests..etc so I put that together. I made an error in assumption, still even then though it was humorous, not a poking fun of, but relating to a traffic stop. So personally do not think you need to stress a point further.

The outdoor public ranges I go to, no one wears a member tag / badge / button, but is 'controlled' at entrance.


So wearing that on a traffic stop for me wouldn't change a thing. It really depends at the time of the violation..etc Circumstances, to add if LEO asks if there are firearms in the vehicle, best to answer honestly.