Pump shotguns in home defense?

[mward]

Where do you guys live that you think you're going to need to fire 7 shots out of your shotgun in an HD situation?

Salisbury.

 

[annihilation-time]

Where do you guys live that you think you're going to need to fire 7 shots out of your shotgun in an HD situation?

Is this a serious question? You could live anywhere in Maryland and have criminals try to harm you or your family. We live in a crime friendly state.

 

[erwos]

Is this a serious question? You could live anywhere in Maryland and have criminals try to harm you or your family. We live in a crime friendly state.

I think you missed my essential point: if you get to the point where more than 3-4 rounds aren't enough, one of the following is true:
1. The problem isn't your shotgun, it's your training.
2. There are so many assailants that you could have a Saiga 12 with a full MD-20, and it wouldn't matter. You shoot one or two, the rest kill you.
3. Bad luck has kicked in, and you're screwed.

A lot of gun owners have this weird fantasy that they're going to get into a protracted firefight in an HD situation (related delusional fantasy: fighting your way to the safe). Statistically, it's going to be over from the time the first shot or two is fired.

 

[mward]

I think I missed your original point too, but agree with what you're saying.

 

[smokey]

Salisbury.

used to live at 900 s division behind the giant when i went to the bury....i agree. EVERY one of our neighbors had their houses broken in to. That's across the street, to the sides, and diagonal across the street. One of the girls across the street woke up with a guy spankin' it in her room as she was sleeping. It may have been the 5 guys in my house with shaved heads....it may have been our belgian malinois that could rest his front paws on the 6' fence...it may have been my shot-up targets and gun stickers....but our house never got broken in to.

Having taught high school freshman during the day....to see them pushing a baby carriage down my street at night, i figured real quick i was NEVER going to live in or try to raise a family in the bury after i graduated.

Of course...if you needed 7 shots from a 12 ga, you'd probably never make it past #3 before either being shot yourself, or getting put in jail for shooting someone in the back as they were running through your front yard.

To be clear, i'm saying you probably won't need 7 shots.....NOT that it's okay to waste a live shell to be billy badass and rack a shotgun to scare someone away. If criminal bob is breaking in with a gun and he hears a shotgun rack, that's his signal to shoot at the sound as he's running out the door so he's not shot first. If criminal bob hears a !BOOOM!..well....he's not going to be a threat to your life anymore. Instead of racking the gun, if you want to give up any advantage in hopes the criminal will have second thoughts....a more practical, "get out or get shot!" would do the same. If you're planning on racking the shotgun, carry it "cruiser safe" with a fully loaded mag, and closed empty chamber.

 

[annihilation-time]

I think you missed my essential point: if you get to the point where more than 3-4 rounds aren't enough, one of the following is true:
1. The problem isn't your shotgun, it's your training.
2. There are so many assailants that you could have a Saiga 12 with a full MD-20, and it wouldn't matter. You shoot one or two, the rest kill you.
3. Bad luck has kicked in, and you're screwed.

A lot of gun owners have this weird fantasy that they're going to get into a protracted firefight in an HD situation (related delusional fantasy: fighting your way to the safe). Statistically, it's going to be over from the time the first shot or two is fired.

I understand and agree to an extent. Your post came off sounding like "why does anyone need something like that." You know those famous liberal words spoken a million times. I'm Sorry if I misread you.

 

[clarksvegas]

Where do you guys live that you think you're going to need to fire 7 shots out of your shotgun in an HD situation?

Yeah, it's not a likely scenario that I would need 7 shots. But then again, that's how the 870 came to me out of the box. Don't forget, you don't necessarily have to have a round in the chamber 24/7. I'm of a preference to not chamber the first round, so racking for effect doesn't give up a good round.

In the end of it all, in this forum we can come up with 20 ways to play this out. And the 20 ways we come up with won't be horrible to get the root of the problem.

 

[mdshooterguy2820]

I will say this, I have never had to fire my shotgun in a HD situation, but at one point I had someone call me in the middle of the night threatening me that I was stealing their newspaper - ex girlfriend drama. They had threatened to come over and kick my arse and continued on about how they would just f me up. I told them to come on over the door is unlocked. Ten minutes later I hear scuffling outside my door. I get another phone call telling me to come outside, I told them to come inside. I had all the lights out and was sitting on my couch with my maverick 88. Two "gentlemen" burst in through the door wearing black head to toe. With that I racked the 88 and that was all it took. Those two took off like bats out of hell. I never had any problem with the ex, her friends, or middle of the night phone calls again. An auto-loader doesn't have the same effect. They didn't have to see me or my shotgun, they just had to hear it.

And no, I wasn't stealing anyone's newspaper

 

[clandestine]

I will say this, I have never had to fire my shotgun in a HD situation, but at one point I had someone call me in the middle of the night threatening me that I was stealing their newspaper - ex girlfriend drama. They had threatened to come over and kick my arse and continued on about how they would just f me up. I told them to come on over the door is unlocked. Ten minutes later I hear scuffling outside my door. I get another phone call telling me to come outside, I told them to come inside. I had all the lights out and was sitting on my couch with my maverick 88. Two "gentlemen" burst in through the door wearing black head to toe. With that I racked the 88 and that was all it took. Those two took off like bats out of hell. I never had any problem with the ex, her friends, or middle of the night phone calls again. An auto-loader doesn't have the same effect. They didn't have to see me or my shotgun, they just had to hear it.

And no, I wasn't stealing anyone's newspaper

You could have had problems there using force when you invite someone in.

 

[Dogabutila]

Statistically, it's going to be over from the time the first shot or two is fired.

Statistically you are never going to be robbed, have somebody attempt to murder you, or have somebody attempt to rape you.

Since statistically you won't have a need to defend yourself hand in your guns.


Why prepare for the statistically probably, if doing so leaves you woefully unprepared for the worst case scenario.



Statistically, you aren't going to get into a car accident today. You don't need that seat belt.

 

[mdshooterguy2820]

You could have had problems there using force when you invite someone in.

You are definitely right there. There is much more to the story then the small description of that night's events involving death threats and tracing phone numbers back that I actually knew who was making the calls and the knew the two "gentlemen" as they were "friends" of the ex. One more so as he wanted to be with the ex most of the time we were together and the other was his tag along friend. Both were out to prove something that night and it wasn't what they were expecting. One was out to prove to the ex that he could be the man for her and stick up for her without a clue that she had no interest in him at all. The other trying to prove to be he could be a best friend and would follow him anywhere. Both were harmless as could be, but all the explaining in the world doesn't make it right. After countless run arounds with the police not being able to "do anything" to stop the harassment, I felt as if I had had enough. The better decision would have been to move (which I did a few months later when my lease expired) and to change my phone number (which I still have not done - since the calls stopped). Hindsight being 20/20 and never having to handle such a situation before, I should have handled the situation differently.

On the plus side, the original death threat that came to me in writing is what prompted me to purchase my first firearm. After all the chaos settled and I was able to move on with life, I had found a new and very addicting hobby. Now a little over a year later I'm up to 3 firearms of my own and visiting the range often. So much so that I've gotten my grandfather and mother shooting again on a regular basis as well as getting my best friend into shooting

 

[erwos]

Statistically you are never going to be robbed, have somebody attempt to murder you, or have somebody attempt to rape you.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with this. I do agree that these are very low probability events.

Since statistically you won't have a need to defend yourself hand in your guns.

See above.

Why prepare for the statistically probably, if doing so leaves you woefully unprepared for the worst case scenario.

You can justify any kind of insanity with this logic.

Statistically, you aren't going to get into a car accident today. You don't need that seat belt.

The cost of wearing a seat belt is zero. The cost of the firearms we're talking about is considerably higher. You have people essentially claiming a shotgun is inadequate for HD if it's not packing seven in the tube. That is a non-zero cost consideration, especially if you're actually buying a decent shotgun tube extension.

 

[OH IT'S KINO]

My philosophy for having seven rounds vs. three or four is my same philosophy for having defensive firearms; I'd rather have them and not need them then need them and not have them. Is it overkill? Probably. But it's overkill that's not going to hurt anything. That said, I wouldn't really feel any less safe with a double barrel stagecoach gun, but I like my shotguns with extended mags. Plus, it's just a fun hobby and I enjoy accessorizing.

Also, in regards to semi-auto vs. pump: I plan to eventually have both. I must admit that if it came to a situation that I had to use a shotgun in defense, I’d probably rather have a reliable semi-auto, but I wouldn’t think twice about grabbing the pump. I DO think that having the sound of racking the slide with a pump could have its advantages though. Just thinking about a situation in which someone is attempting to break in, but hasn’t breached yet, I would probably have 911 called and then warn the intruder with a warning: “I have a weapon (rack slide), leave immediately.” That’s about the only time I would EVER think it could be useful, as I’m not going to open fire on someone attempting to break in without verbally confronting them, but I’m certainly not going to wait for them to breach before I take action. If that situation occurred then I probably wouldn’t worry about losing one of my seven available rounds. If there’s ever a situation where someone is already in my house and my family is being threatened, then the perp will only hear one sound... and it will be the last one they ever hear.

That’s just my immediate thought. I don’t think there’s one right answer for any single situation… Only one thing is for sure: it’s better to be armed and able to protect your family and yourself then to not be armed at all.

 

[trbon8r]

So there are no reliable autoloaders out of the box for less than a $1000? I can name four right off the top of my head:

Remington 1100
Remington 11-87
Beretta 1200
Browning Auto 5

The above mentioned guns either already come in a police configuration, or are a barrel chop away from being a perfectly good defensive shotgun for well under $1000. I've got a good amount of trigger time with three of the four guns I listed, and they all run just fine.

 

[K31]

Double gun, side hammers. The ultimate in reliability.

 

[4g64loser]

erwos makes some very good (and well reasoned) arguments.

remember that we all have a right to disagree.

This thread has a good deal of good information and a good deal of differing opinion. That is the point of this place. I don't agree with everything said here, but that is my right. While I might not agree, I can respect the right of others to their opinion. As long as everyone is reasonable.

Oh, and erwos, you are right about lower capacity guns doing just fine. I know several individuals that can speed reload their shotguns (standard remington 870 police cruiser 4+1 guns) VERY fast. I can actually load my 870 faster than my 1100, though I trust either gun with my life.

 

[jimbobborg]

I can actually load my 870 faster than my 1100, though I trust either gun with my life.

You need one of these: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=5796/Product/REMINGTON_1100_11_87_EASYLOADER on that 1100.

 

[booker]

I keep a 12ga Benelli Nova pump for HD primary and wouldn't trade it for any auto. The reliability of a pump is just too great.

I keep it unchambered, safety off, but that's because I don't practice with it enough to be automatic with the safety in the dark and under stress.

 

[erwos]

Oh, to be sure, if you've got a seven round tube, fill it... I'm just trying to say that capacity and reload speed is not the overwhelming consideration when it comes to an HD shotgun. I'd worry more about tritium sights, a good flashlight, and basic reliability. (I also suspect a good laser might be handy, but I know that's heresy to some people.)

 

[BenL]

So there are no reliable autoloaders out of the box for less than a $1000? I can name four right off the top of my head:

Remington 1100
Remington 11-87
Beretta 1200
Browning Auto 5

The above mentioned guns either already come in a police configuration, or are a barrel chop away from being a perfectly good defensive shotgun for well under $1000. I've got a good amount of trigger time with three of the four guns I listed, and they all run just fine.

I can't tell you how many Remmy 1100's I've seen fail at 3 gun competitions; just in one match I saw 4 different people with 1100's have cycling issues. (that being said, I do have an 11-87 Premiere that's been 100% reliable, but I keep it very clean.)

I have an FN SLP Mark 1 that's been 100% reliable, but it's only got ~2000 rounds through it, so far. (I think it's under $1K)