PSA That didn't take long.........

[miles71]

I am starting to see courses offered by instructors who are taking shortcuts in instruction, even worse charging a high price for a "shorter than legal" course. I have no issue with including a lunch break, regular breaks in the instruction, and even maybe finishing a LITTLE early if the course is full of superstars, but not charging premium money for a 16 hours course that only lasts 12 at the most.
Fairly recently an individual got in a good bit of trouble for fraudulently approving students for HQL and Permits, In my opinion some instructors are playing a dangerous game with the requirements. I have had a few individuals call me to talk about class who just wanted only the minimum, I told them my class probably wasn't a good fit.
As always, research the course and instructor and find what's best for you. There are a lot of good instructors offering classes. You deserve the best training. Stay Safe, TD

 

[dannyp]

my instructor sent out an email informing everyone that it is illegal to try to "shorten " the course by less that what md. requires .

 

[jr88]

I see your point and agree IF the course is laid out properly. Personally I would like to see several variants, a class for people who are very new to firearms and maybe a course that covers liability issues in the event of the use of deadly force for experienced shooters,etc. As others have said an outline should have been developed, only problem is the folks mandating the class know little to nothing about what it should contain. If the course is just to satisfy a mandate created to deter people, then I'd rather just pay my money, shoot the qualifier and leave.
This mad rush is bound to create issues, that's why I will wait until the dust settles and approach with informed caution. Too many people seem to want to be the first on their block with a CCW Permit.

 

[miles71]

my instructor sent out an email informing everyone that it is illegal to try to "shorten " the course by less that what md. requires .

'Tis true

 

[miles71]

I see your point and agree IF the course is laid out properly. Personally I would like to see several variants, a class for people who are very new to firearms and maybe a course that covers liability issues in the event of the use of deadly force for experienced shooters,etc. As others have said an outline should have been developed, only problem is the folks mandating the class know little to nothing about what it should contain. If the course is just to satisfy a mandate created to deter people, then I'd rather just pay my money, shoot the qualifier and leave.
This mad rush is bound to create issues, that's why I will wait until the dust settles and approach with informed caution. Too many people seem to want to be the first on their block with a CCW Permit.

One of the biggest challenges is creating a course that is a good fit for the crazy variations for experience levels. The only way I would teach true beginners the W&C course is if they are all true beginners at the same level. The vast majority of people who contact me for W&C have some sort of experience. TD

 

[6-Pack]

I see your point and agree IF the course is laid out properly. Personally I would like to see several variants, a class for people who are very new to firearms and maybe a course that covers liability issues in the event of the use of deadly force for experienced shooters,etc. As others have said an outline should have been developed, only problem is the folks mandating the class know little to nothing about what it should contain. If the course is just to satisfy a mandate created to deter people, then I'd rather just pay my money, shoot the qualifier and leave.
This mad rush is bound to create issues, that's why I will wait until the dust settles and approach with informed caution. Too many people seem to want to be the first on their block with a CCW Permit.

I view it as a $275 tax that takes up an entire weekend. I'm all for training, but let's face it, the sole and absolutely only reason I'm taking training this weekend is so I can get my CCW permit. I will be attentive, and I hope to learn a few things, but I don't care if we play checkers with gun parts, have gun part bingo, or just sit there and watch paint dry - I'm there for one reason only: the state says I need this course to get my CCW.

 

[CaptChaos]

I view it as a $275 tax that takes up an entire weekend. I'm all for training, but let's face it, the sole and absolutely only reason I'm taking training this weekend is so I can get my CCW permit. I will be attentive, and I hope to learn a few things, but I don't care if we play checkers with gun parts, have gun part bingo, or just sit there and watch paint dry - I'm there for one reason only: the state says I need this course to get my CCW.

Totally agree with this. This is an absolute waste of time for most of us who’ve handled firearms safely for decades and have simply been denied rights and this hurdle is being jumped exclusively out of necessity and under protest.

 

[BigCity]

Not to mention that you have to do it again and again for renewals

 

[Glaron]

Totally agree with this. This is an absolute waste of time for most of us who’ve handled firearms safely for decades and have simply been denied rights and this hurdle is being jumped exclusively out of necessity and under protest.

yes, what a crock of Sheets. They enjoy crime, they campaign of it.

 

[Art3]

FFS!

We've just gained (whether won or given) a mile, and people are trying to cheat out a few inches. Getting rid of G&S (or making self defense qualify) has been our rallying cry for...well, as long as I can remember. There's even a fairly big local 2A organization named for it We got that. WE GOT IT! But for some it isn't enough...already. Look, if they don't want to take the training, they don't have to take the training...they can just wait and bitch as though Bruen never happened. Plenty of others will go through the training (if they haven't already), get their permits, and make MD safer for the reluctant anyway. Or, better yet, don't cheat the training. Beat the training. Get it removed legislatively (good luck with that) to make the win complete for everyone.

Honestly, I might have more respect for folks who went all in on WWNC and carried whatever they wanted wherever they wanted to facing whatever consequences there might be.

What's going to happen when the first loophole trained ccwer has a "whoopsie" that demonstrates the current required training obviously isn't enough? Thirty two hours for the rest of us? Yearly?

Why can't we just celebrate the massive windfall as it is?

 

[lazarus]

FFS!

We've just gained (whether won or given) a mile, and people are trying to cheat out a few inches. Getting rid of G&S (or making self defense qualify) has been our rallying cry for...well, as long as I can remember. There's even a fairly big local 2A organization named for it We got that. WE GOT IT! But for some it isn't enough...already. Look, if they don't want to take the training, they don't have to take the training...they can just wait and bitch as though Bruen never happened. Plenty of others will go through the training (if they haven't already), get their permits, and make MD safer for the reluctant anyway. Or, better yet, don't cheat the training. Beat the training. Get it removed legislatively (good luck with that) to make the win complete for everyone.

Honestly, I might have more respect for folks who went all in on WWNC and carried whatever they wanted wherever they wanted to facing whatever consequences there might be.

What's going to happen when the first loophole trained ccwer has a "whoopsie" that demonstrates the current required training obviously isn't enough? Thirty two hours for the rest of us? Yearly?

Why can't we just celebrate the massive windfall as it is?

I am celebrating. I am also for better or worse a rule follower. I don’t want short cuts. I’ll cry zero tears if the training gets cut down eventually. Or even eliminated. I do think people should need to show they can be safe with a firearm for a carry license. I think that would be easy enough to do. Show safe firearm handling and shoot a basic qualifier. If you can do that, here is your license. Can’t do that, then we suggest you go get training and come back when you are ready.

At any rate, I am going in with an open mind and a desire to learn. If I am paying for it anyway, I should try to do and something, not just check a box. But I’d be uncomfortable taking short cuts. I am not going to get my underwear in a twist if it turns out the 16hrs was actually 15hrs and 43 minutes because the training started a few minutes late or ended a few minutes early rather than jump in to a new topic at the end of the day. But I disagree with shortcuts.

Also I’d like to play gun parts checkers at lunchtime. “I just jumped your AR FCG so please king my Glock barrel”

 

[gtkim67]

Sorry for a newbie question, but can I get some clarity. Is the wear and carry the same as CCW, I'm confused as to the wording. Thanks and sorry if wrong place to ask.

 

[Art3]

I am celebrating. I am also for better or worse a rule follower. I don’t want short cuts. I’ll cry zero tears if the training gets cut down eventually. Or even eliminated. I do think people should need to show they can be safe with a firearm for a carry license. I think that would be easy enough to do. Show safe firearm handling and shoot a basic qualifier. If you can do that, here is your license. Can’t do that, then we suggest you go get training and come back when you are ready.

At any rate, I am going in with an open mind and a desire to learn. If I am paying for it anyway, I should try to do and something, not just check a box. But I’d be uncomfortable taking short cuts. I am not going to get my underwear in a twist if it turns out the 16hrs was actually 15hrs and 43 minutes because the training started a few minutes late or ended a few minutes early rather than jump in to a new topic at the end of the day. But I disagree with shortcuts.

Also I’d like to play gun parts checkers at lunchtime. “I just jumped your AR FCG so please king my Glock barrel”

I saw your other positive attitude post. Going in with an open mind, I'm sure you'll learn SOMETHING

 

[Art3]

Sorry for a newbie question, but can I get some clarity. Is the wear and carry the same as CCW, I'm confused as to the wording. Thanks and sorry if wrong place to ask.

Yes, wear and carry is what MD calls it (and it doesn't HAVE to be concealed...but it should be ).

 

[gtkim67]

Yes, wear and carry is what MD calls it (and it doesn't HAVE to be concealed...but it should be

Thanks so much for the answer, was scared of being flamed to death for asking. Have a great weekend!

 

[Threeband]

I believe statistics reveal no difference in outcomes between states with rigorous training and no training at all. Frankly, I'd like to see a basic civics test for voting...

 

[Boats]

FFS!

We've just gained (whether won or given) a mile, and people are trying to cheat out a few inches. Getting rid of G&S (or making self defense qualify) has been our rallying cry for...well, as long as I can remember. There's even a fairly big local 2A organization named for it We got that. WE GOT IT! But for some it isn't enough...already. Look, if they don't want to take the training, they don't have to take the training...they can just wait and bitch as though Bruen never happened. Plenty of others will go through the training (if they haven't already), get their permits, and make MD safer for the reluctant anyway. Or, better yet, don't cheat the training. Beat the training. Get it removed legislatively (good luck with that) to make the win complete for everyone.

Honestly, I might have more respect for folks who went all in on WWNC and carried whatever they wanted wherever they wanted to facing whatever consequences there might be.

What's going to happen when the first loophole trained ccwer has a "whoopsie" that demonstrates the current required training obviously isn't enough? Thirty two hours for the rest of us? Yearly?

Why can't we just celebrate the massive windfall as it is?

Good point, well made.

 

[Moonlighter]

I'm not a lawyer but one thing that I think about for all the new MD W&C permit holders is, what if you had to use your firearm out in public and you were charged with a crime afterwards, for whatever the circumstances might be? The prosecutor would likely be probing every aspect, including training you attended. If I get my permit I would definitely consider going well above the required minimums for multiple reasons, one of them being to reduce potential liability from a legal perspective.

 

[6-Pack]

I'm not a lawyer but one thing that I think about for all the new MD W&C permit holders is, what if you had to use your firearm out in public and you were charged with a crime afterwards, for whatever the circumstances might be? The prosecutor would likely be probing every aspect, including training you attended. If I get my permit I would definitely consider going well above the required minimums for multiple reasons, one of them being to reduce potential liability from a legal perspective.

I think this depends where you are. Baltimore City’s prosecutor would go after any law abiding citizen for any reason. Carroll County and west and the Eastern Shore would likely have a much different outcome.

Training likely wouldn’t come into play with the use of deadly force though. What matters is intent, whether you had a duty to retreat, whether you could retreat (an exception to the duty to retreat is if the other person pulls a firearm - you can’t outrun a bullet, so there’s no duty to retreat), and other situational factors.

Sure, they could bring up training, but if you met the legal minimum they can’t make that argument. It’s like driving a car - if you kill someone while driving they aren’t going to ask what training you took beyond basic driver’s ed (unless you had to take the defensive driving course because of too many traffic tickets).

It’s like carrying reloaded ammunition. I see a lot of people on the internet saying you should never carry with reloaded ammunition because it could be used against you. I’ve yet to hear of any court case where that was an issue. Only potential issue I could see is New Jersey where hollow points are unlawful.

I’m with you on more training though: more training never hurt anyone. I actually got a bunch of the Personal Defense Network DVDs off eBay that I’ve been watching in my spare time. Not a substitute for actual training, but I’ve definitely picked up a few tips.

 

[John from MD]

I believe statistics reveal no difference in outcomes between states with rigorous training and no training at all. Frankly, I'd like to see a basic civics test for voting...

If you can remember that far back, we used to have this. It was called Civics class and they taught it starting in grade school. The Fv*king pot smoking, Canada hiding liberals ruined our school system.