Preban lower sbr build questions/advisement

[outrider58]

Nothing in that letter about manufacturing a new firearm.

The reason the ATF will not approve <29" is because they will not interpreting MD law and are simply deferring to MD state guidance. MD tells ATF no approvals over 29" that's what we get.

I speculate this is why SBR's were not being approved for awhile. Orders from O'Malley to the ATF to deny all SBR's. Probably in retaliation for the Engage lawsuit or Hogan's stunning victory.

As far as the ATF is concerned a rifle is a SBR or it is not an SBR. Once it is a registered SBR it can be in any barrel/oal/caliber configuration and is not limited to the barrel/aol/caliber that it is registered as.

No on the first one. No on the second one and yes on the third one as long as oal stays over 29'' on centerfires.

 

[TheBulge]

Look at that the title of a Form 1 is.

What exactly does it say?

 

[bobthefisher]

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Man, endless threads on this issue. Not that I blame us but MSP has really screwed this one up...

This is my whole point. Make is not Manufacture....
If you registered a lower that was manufactured and serialized by someone else you MAKE a SBR you do not manufacture it.

If you register a lower that you machined from an 80% and you serialized, you just manufactured a SBR.

ATF does not care if you make or manufacture it. Its the same to them. If you take a Rifle and make it into a SBR OR if you take a chuck of metal and manufacturer it into a SBR... its all the same to them. Your name is down as the person who created a SBR. To understand this, you must understand the tier system of the ATF. Once its a SBR, its no longer a rifle.

BTW, there is NO guidance from MSP about making a pre-ban lower into a rifle with a non-HBAR at this time. IF you assembled it with a non-HBAR upper BEFORE Oct 1, 2013, you are GTG, as the "rifle" is now grandfathered.

But if you did not assemble it into a rifle before Oct 1, 2013, you may be violating the law to do so now with a non-HBAR barrel.

This assembled with a Non-Hbar idea is a total waste of thought. It does not matter and thats why we have not heard from MSP on it. It does not mater. If its a pre-ban lower, it can take any upper. Its registered as an Assault Rifle... it does not matter! They Police could never prove it was not ever assembled without a standard barrel upper anyway. IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE. So forget this idea.

For now, MSP has told MSP that FSA 2013 means that no SBRs under 29.5"s. I do not believe this will stand. However if no one challenges it, maybe.

What is unclear is if after approval, if you then changed it to under 29.5" would this be illegal.

I will also note, MD does not have any law regarding what manufacturing/making a firearm is. So going theory is that ATF rules stand. So then if you SBR above 29.5" then later change to under 29.5"s by ATF standards that would not be making/Manufacturing a new gun. What would be interesting to do is to then send ATF notification of this change. See if they reply that its not allowed.

 

[MACTHEGUN]

After speaking with numerous MSP employees, I've come to the conclusion that they're not the problem here, It's the politicians (and their lawyers) that come up with this convoluted crap to intentionaly spread fear and confusion knowing that law abiding citizens will abide by the law at the expense of their liberty while they (the politicians) can make it look like they did something to "prevent crime" and they don't give two hoots as to how hard MSP/ATF has to work to figure it out.


Can I assume that you meant 29" instead of 29.5", or have they changed that too?

 

[TheBulge]

ATF does not care if you make or manufacture it. Its the same to them.

I think we agree for the most part.
The ATF doesn't care for the purposes of a form 1 if a SBR is made or manufactured, but it is not the same. The language of the law differentiates "make" and "manufacture" over and over again. This might be significant for MD law at some point.

Once its a SBR, its no longer a rifle.

Once its a SBR, its no longer a rifle, until it is a rifle again and then it is no longer a SBR.

What is unclear is if after approval, if you then changed it to under 29.5" would this be illegal.

This is the real rub and there is little to go on from the state.
What is a SBR by MD law? is it a pistol, a copycat weapon, and assault long gun?

I hope the Engage lawsuit clears this up.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

After speaking with numerous MSP employees, I've come to the conclusion that they're not the problem here, ....Can I assume that you meant 29" instead of 29.5", or have they changed that too?

No, I believe in this case its clearly a MSP issue. They are not respecting the tier system of the ATF. If they were, as they normally do, then it would be clear that a SBR is not subject to laws governing a semi auto rife. Look at it this way. My select fire M16 shoots from the shoulder and so is a rifle and can shoot in semi auto. However its not subject to that law because its a MG. A SBR is a SBR, not a semi auto rifle. MSP is the one making this a big deal by saying that SBR are covered under this law. They respect the tier that a select fire MG is not a semi auto, even if it can be. However they don't respect the SBR. If it was called a MG rifle or if a SBR was a short barrel firearm rather than a rifle, we would not be having this conversation. They also flipped on this issue after originally correctly saying no NFA items were affected by the law. My guess is political pressure caused that issue.

Yes sorry 29". For some reason 29.5" was sticking in my head.

...
Once its a SBR, its no longer a rifle, until it is a rifle again and then it is no longer a SBR.

This is the real rub and there is little to go on from the state.
What is a SBR by MD law? is it a pistol, a copycat weapon, and assault long gun?

I hope the Engage lawsuit clears this up.

If you un SBR it, its no longer an NFA firearm... so just don't do that! This could still be an issue for other guns too. Like AOWs and DDs.

A SBR is a SBR. However its also a handgun. A handgun in MD covers almost every gun as its anything that can be concealed which is so open ended, anything counts. However this actually helps us. As if its a handgun, it can not be a semi auto rifle... Only is MD.

Yeah I am not holding my breath but hope so!

 

[swinokur]

I was told apparently BATF is now getting their guidance from Frosh, not MSP.

That explains some of this.

 

[Pinecone]

ATF does not care if you make or manufacture it. Its the same to them. If you take a Rifle and make it into a SBR OR if you take a chuck of metal and manufacturer it into a SBR... its all the same to them. Your name is down as the person who created a SBR. To understand this, you must understand the tier system of the ATF. Once its a SBR, its no longer a rifle.

Yes and no. If you put a 16+" barrel on it, it is NOT and SBR. And you can transport out of state without ATF permission. ATF says this in their FAQ.

This assembled with a Non-Hbar idea is a total waste of thought. It does not matter and thats why we have not heard from MSP on it. It does not mater. If its a pre-ban lower, it can take any upper. Its registered as an Assault Rifle... it does not matter! They Police could never prove it was not ever assembled without a standard barrel upper anyway. IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE. So forget this idea.

Ask MSP about this and see what they tell you.

It is a situation that is not defined by law. But a stripped lower is NOT a rifle. And the law only grandfathers RIFLES that meet the conditions to be now banned.

No, they could not prove it, but you would still have gone through arrest, confiscation, lawyers fees. You still lose. But since you are telling people that they are OK to do this, are you willing to step up and say if they do get arrested, YOU will pay their legal fees? Are you THAT sure of your position?

And also, SOME people, actually try to follow the law as best that they can.

 

[Pinecone]

What exactly does it say?

Application to Make and Register a Firearm

https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf

 

[outrider58]

...And please explain why you would un-sbr it? By the way, as far as BATF is concerned, that gun is always an SBR. It is registered and engraved as such.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Yes and no. If you put a 16+" barrel on it, it is NOT and SBR. And you can transport out of state without ATF permission. ATF says this in their FAQ.

Ask MSP about this and see what they tell you.

MSP has said it both ways at this point. MSP constantly gets things wrong. How long did it take them to require SBRs on the handgun roster? How many 1000s of SBRs were illegal approved by MSP during that time???

It is a situation that is not defined by law. But a stripped lower is NOT a rifle. And the law only grandfathers RIFLES that meet the conditions to be now banned.

It was registered with MSP as an assault rifle during that time! So according to MD its an assault rifle.

No, they could not prove it, but you would still have gone through arrest, confiscation, lawyers fees. You still lose. But since you are telling people that they are OK to do this, are you willing to step up and say if they do get arrested, YOU will pay their legal fees? Are you THAT sure of your position?

How can they arrest you with no proof? How would they know to arrest you? Its like a catch 22.... its illegal if they can prove something they can't know... Its just not worth anyone's time going over that impossibility.

And also, SOME people, actually try to follow the law as best that they can.

They sell all your guns because I am sure you are getting into some grey area with all of them, you just don't know it. Ever hear the judge's option that any gun that can be made into a MG in 8 hours of a fully equipped Machine shop is an illegal MG? Well that pretty much covers all guns!

...And please explain why you would un-sbr it? By the way, as far as BATF is concerned, that gun is always an SBR. It is registered and engraved as such.

If you install a barrel larger than 16"s its no longer a SBR. Its like taking a 55 Caliber barrel off a Destructive devices and putting a 50 caliber barrel on it. Its no longer an NFA item often...

ATF was actually sued over the un_SBRing issue before... up to then you could not unSBR a gun and you would be correct.

 

[outrider58]

This assembled with a Non-Hbar idea is a total waste of thought. It does not matter and thats why we have not heard from MSP on it. It does not mater. If its a pre-ban lower, it can take any upper. Its registered as an Assault Rifle... it does not matter! They Police could never prove it was not ever assembled without a standard barrel upper anyway. IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE. So forget this idea.

Just following you line of logic, which I agree with.

 

[Pinecone]

...And please explain why you would un-sbr it? By the way, as far as BATF is concerned, that gun is always an SBR. It is registered and engraved as such.

Nope.

Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.

Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA “firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.

Q: Is it necessary to send notification to ATF and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the NFA before it may be sold as a GCA firearm?
There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered NFA firearm to notify ATF that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the NFA. However, ATF recommends the possessor notify the NFA Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a crime. If, at the time of transfer, the firearm does not meet the definition of a SBR, it should be transferred without filing the NFA transfer application and without payment of the transfer tax.

 

[Pinecone]

MSP has said it both ways at this point. MSP constantly gets things wrong. How long did it take them to require SBRs on the handgun roster? How many 1000s of SBRs were illegal approved by MSP during that time???

So even if they are wrong, are you willing to be arrested and go to court to prove them wrong?

It was registered with MSP as an assault rifle during that time! So according to MD its an assault rifle.

Not if it was transferred as OTHER. It could be built a rifle, handgun, HBAR, SBR. Only ONE of those makes is a grandfathered assualt rifle.

How can they arrest you with no proof? How would they know to arrest you? Its like a catch 22.... its illegal if they can prove something they can't know... Its just not worth anyone's time going over that impossibility.

Hmm, no one has EVER been mistakenly arrested and ended up in court to prove that? All you need it an officer with some partial knowledge, who is having a bad day, and POd at the world, and you happen to be close by.

If you install a barrel larger than 16"s its no longer a SBR. Its like taking a 55 Caliber barrel off a Destructive devices and putting a 50 caliber barrel on it. Its no longer an NFA item often...

ONLY if you no long have control of the short barrel parts. See response above.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

So even if they are wrong, are you willing to be arrested and go to court to prove them wrong?

So what you are saying is that when the cop goes to arrest you, you are going to tell him that you assembled it with a pencil barrel upper at one point before the ban... then he is going to take the cuffs off and you walk? Come on man. If you get to that point, you are going to jail. Face it. I don't think the cop even has access to all the info on the registration. Just that its registered or not. You are just mind-screwing yourself thinking of issues that no cop could even come close to thinking of. This is very easy procedure for the cop.
1. Assault rifle found (not heavy barrel).
2. Is it registered with MSP?
Yes, Legal
No, Arrest

Thats it.... end of what happens. So if you have a gun, AR in this case, and its an Assault rifle, it must be registered. Bottom line end of story...

Not if it was transferred as OTHER. It could be built a rifle, handgun, HBAR, SBR. Only ONE of those makes is a grandfathered assualt rifle.

However the cop or anyone else has no idea which was done. What matters is what it looks like now. If in Assault rifle config, it must be registered. If so you are good. I guess MAYBE if you told the officer you broke the law, he might arrest you and figure it out later. However most Cops have NO idea on any of this stuff much less what you are talking about. Maybe what you should be suggesting is "don't talk to the cops"! Don't incriminate yourself. This goes for any gun related issue where you are breaking the law or not.

Hmm, no one has EVER been mistakenly arrested and ended up in court to prove that? All you need it an officer with some partial knowledge, who is having a bad day, and POd at the world, and you happen to be close by.

You are saying that if you are arrested you already lose. What I am saying is everything you are talking about will NOT save you from being arrested. If the cop is mistakenly arresting you, its going to happen either way and you already lose. All you are saying will make no difference...

ONLY if you no long have control of the short barrel parts. See response above.

Thats not true either. I have a 11" Upper sitting at home not connected to any lower. I have AR15 (Non SBR) lowers. Its 100% legal. Its an upper for my registered M16. I don't have to have all my uppers on the gun. So if you put a 16" upper on it, leave the SBR upper at home, its a regular rifle. You just can't carry it with you. You don't have to sell it off. It can be in your possession but not with you. If your 11" uppers is in MD and you are in FL with the gun, its not a SBR.

Many gun owners need to come to terms with the FACT that most gun related arrest of innocent gun owners will happen no matter what they do. The thing that will get you arrested will likely be something no one could foresee. A worn sear that causes a the gun to double as an ATF officer walks by and arrests you for a 1911 Machine gun. Something odd like that. There are serious laws being broken all the time that are completely looked over. The guys selling MGs because they are not in operating condition... not knowing they are still illegal. Happens all the time. I see 5-10 cases of that one every year. I mean thats a 10 year in jail mistake and I have never seen anyone charged with it. Anyway, the gun laws are like the tax laws. IF they want to arrest you, you can bet they will find something to justify it. So long as you don't come to their attention, you are fine. If you come to their attention and they want to, they will get you. So these issues like this one are just ridiculous to rehash over and over and over.

 

[outrider58]

Nope.

I'll clarify my point. What I was trying to say(and not very well) was, if I were to take my short barreled, NFA upper off my NFA lower and replace it with a 16" or longer barrel, temporarily, that doesn't nullify its NFA status as long as I plan to return it to its original (NFA) condition. Without notifying BATFE of a permanent change, as far as BATFE are concerned, it remains an NFA item. Hopefully I have that right.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

... Without notifying BATFE of a permanent change, as far as BATFE are concerned, it remains an NFA item. Hopefully I have that right.

Without notifying the ATF, the stamp remains good. However without a 16+ Inch barrel, its not an NFA item and not subject to NFA restrictions. It just means you can return it to its NFA form.

 

[outrider58]

Without notifying the ATF, the stamp remains good. However without a 16+ Inch barrel, its not an NFA item and not subject to NFA restrictions. It just means you can return it to its NFA form.

Understood thanks.

 

[Pinecone]

Thats not true either. I have a 11" Upper sitting at home not connected to any lower. I have AR15 (Non SBR) lowers. Its 100% legal. Its an upper for my registered M16. I don't have to have all my uppers on the gun. So if you put a 16" upper on it, leave the SBR upper at home, its a regular rifle. You just can't carry it with you. You don't have to sell it off. It can be in your possession but not with you. If your 11" uppers is in MD and you are in FL with the gun, its not a SBR.

If you have an 11" upper and ONLY non-SBR lowers, you could be charged under the constructive intent. BATFE discusses this on their website. If you have SBR lowers, then you are OK, as long as you do not get caught with the short barrel upper on a non-SBR lower.

As to whether just removing the short upper is enough:

The temporary removal of the barrel for repair or change of caliber does not remove a NFA firearm from the purview of the NFA. If the registrant maintains control of the parts required for assembly of a SBR, he or she must maintain the registration as a SBS or SBS regardless of the length of time that the barrel is unattached.

You disagree with BATFE. Your choice.

I agree with you that it would be hard to say you had control of parts in another state, here is what ATF says:

If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?

If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.

YOu can say and think whatever you want. But that does not make it correct in the eyes of the BATFE or MSP or MD AG. Even if you use logic.