Preban lower sbr build questions/advisement

[Pinion]

I know most of us are not lawyers and I did just email rusty about this, im looking at building an SBR but the lower i want to build it on is preban bought as a stripped lower. Can i convert this to SBR by any means of having them reissue the lower? From what i can tell if i were to order a completed upper with a 8 or 10" barrel from certain companies it just comes to to me. So i would assume if i did and dropped it onto my lower that would be illegal until it was converted via nfa somehow to a sbr taxed lower? I know i want to go the trust route whether i do the quicken or lawyer version im undecided yet.

 

[OrbitalEllipses]

If you want to SBR a lower right now, do it on a post-ban lower.

 

[Wayne1one]

If you want to SBR a lower right now, do it on a post-ban lower.

This, the rational is that your pre-ban lower can be used with any non-nfa type upper. Post ban uppers are good to go on SBRs.

 

[Braddbdl]

BUMP!

I have many questions about this as well. I just finished my trust, but now I'm more confused than ever on how to get my SBR going.

 

[daNattyFatty]

Wow, so the rationale has changed? Last year, I did an SBR on a form 1 with a pre ban lower and had no problems. I don't know if it matters, but the OAL was greater than 29" as well.

 

[94hokie]

I know most of us are not lawyers and I did just email rusty about this, im looking at building an SBR but the lower i want to build it on is preban bought as a stripped lower. Can i convert this to SBR by any means of having them reissue the lower? From what i can tell if i were to order a completed upper with a 8 or 10" barrel from certain companies it just comes to to me. So i would assume if i did and dropped it onto my lower that would be illegal until it was converted via nfa somehow to a sbr taxed lower? I know i want to go the trust route whether i do the quicken or lawyer version im undecided yet.

You cannot put an upper with a less than 16'' barrel on until after you get your form 1 tax stamp, so generally most people will tell you don't even order it until you have the stamp to keep you legal. Also remember, in Maryland you have to be greater than 29'', so you'll probably need at least a 10'' barrel.

 

[teratos]

Wow, so the rationale has changed? Last year, I did an SBR on a form 1 with a pre ban lower and had no problems. I don't know if it matters, but the OAL was greater than 29" as well.

You still need to follow all the "copy cat" tests. Since building a SBR is technically manufacturing a new rifle, it doesn't matter if you use a pre or post receiver.

 

[94hokie]

Wow, so the rationale has changed? Last year, I did an SBR on a form 1 with a pre ban lower and had no problems. I don't know if it matters, but the OAL was greater than 29" as well.

You can SBR a pre-ban lower, but most people are saving them for regular non HBAR builds, and using post-ban lowers for SBR's

 

[MACTHEGUN]

I understand that pre-ban SBR's are GTG with any 29"&> upper but do post ban SBR's require a heavy barrel in Md?

Although the question was asked before, I never really heard the answer.

 

[94hokie]

I understand that pre-ban SBR's are GTG with any 29"&> upper but do post ban SBR's require a heavy barrel in Md?

Although the question was asked before, I never really heard the answer.

no they do not

 

[teratos]

no they do not

I think they do.

 

[TheBulge]

building a SBR is technically manufacturing a new rifle.

Can you point me to anything that actually says this? I have done several form 1's and cant find anything on there indicating I manufactured a new firearm.

 

[outrider58]

I think they do.

No, they don't, so I've been told but, most 10.5-11.5 5.56 bbls. are gonna be hbars anyway. If you go 300 AAC or 9mil, those bbls. count as hbars period.

Pre-ban, post ban, doesn't matter. You can always throw your pre-ban, 16'' upper back on your pre-banned SBR'ed lower. No need to ''save'' it as a sole pre-ban rifle.

 

[bobthefisher]

Can you point me to anything that actually says this? I have done several form 1's and cant find anything on there indicating I manufactured a new firearm.

The ATF has stated as such when referencing the new (FSA2013) MD laws. See the attached letter to this post. They are also not approving any SBR under 29 inches in OAL (pre or post ban), except for precisely worded rimfire builds.

View attachment ATF Maryland SBR Letter.pdf

SBR's are considered handguns in MD, even after the new law that will go into affect this Oct 1st concerning the nullification of the roster board approval. Since SBR's are handguns, an HBAR is not required for any AR-15 SBR build. Compliance with the "copycat weapon" restrictions is all that is required when building one for yourself (i.e. Form 1).

Currently any Form 4 SBR transfers will need to be on the handgun roster, but this requirement will be nullified (thankfully) on Oct. 1st 2015.

The point, use your pre-ban AR-15 receivers for pre-ban (non-NFA) builds, and post-ban AR-15 receivers for SBR and pistol builds. The reasoning for this, is that it'll keep your lower receiver off the NFRTR (NFA registry) in-case you want to easily sell your receiver in the future. Blasphemy... I know. You can remove an SBR from the NFRTR, but it'll take some time and extra paperwork. It's up to you, personally I don't mind buying an extra receiver

Here are my instructions for building a rimfire SBR that's less than 29 inches in OAL:
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=171055

 

[Pinion]

Well it would appear that ill be buying a new lower for this build then and keep my other one to build something fun for me or my daughter, she would lover her some hot pink moe furniture. lol

 

[TheBulge]

The ATF has stated as such when referencing the new (FSA2013) MD laws. See the attached letter to this post. They are also not approving any SBR under 29 inches in OAL (pre or post ban), except for precisely worded rimfire builds.

View attachment 150918

Nothing in that letter about manufacturing a new firearm.

The reason the ATF will not approve <29" is because they will not interpret MD law and are simply deferring to MD state guidance. MD tells ATF no approvals over 29" that's what we get.

I speculate this is why SBR's were not being approved for awhile. Orders from O'Malley to the ATF to deny all SBR's. Probably in retaliation for the Engage lawsuit or Hogan's stunning victory.

As far as the ATF is concerned a rifle is a SBR or it is not an SBR. Once it is a registered SBR it can be in any barrel/oal/caliber configuration and is not limited to the barrel/aol/caliber that it is registered as.

 

[teratos]

Nothing in that letter about manufacturing a new firearm.

Look no further than the top of the form 1. Application to Make and Register a Firearm.

This is also the reason why you have to have YOUR name and YOUR town engraved on the gun. YOU are now the manufacturer of a new firearm.

 

[TheBulge]

Look no further than the top of the form 1. Application to Make and Register a Firearm.

This is also the reason why you have to have YOUR name and YOUR town engraved on the gun. YOU are now the manufacturer of a new firearm.

This is my whole point. Make is not Manufacture.

I don't know why we have to engrave, but engraving does not mean you are a manufacture. Makers and importers are also required to identify the firearm.

27 CFR 479.102
§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) By engraving, casting, stamping


From the ATF handbook
6.2.1
If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial
number

I have never engraved a serial number on any of my form 1 firearms because I never manufactured any of them.


Look a at the language of the law. From the CFR, to the ATF handbook, to ATF opinion letters, to the Form 1 itself. They all repeatedly distinguish maker from manufacturer. They are not the same.

If you registered a lower that was manufactured and serialized by someone else you MAKE a SBR you do not manufacture it.

If you register a lower that you machined from an 80% and you serialized, you just manufactured a SBR.



.

 

[Pinecone]

I think they do.

They do NOT.

 

[Pinecone]

Look at that the title of a Form 1 is.

You ARE manufacturing the SBR. But if you swap out an upper with 16+" barrel, it is not an SBR at that time.

BTW, there is NO guidance from MSP about making a pre-ban lower into a rifle with a non-HBAR at this time. IF you assembled it with a non-HBAR upper BEFORE Oct 1, 2013, you are GTG, as the "rifle" is now grandfathered.

But if you did not assemble it into a rifle before Oct 1, 2013, you may be violating the law to do so now with a non-HBAR barrel. Emailing this question to MSP has produced different answers depending on who in MSP answers. Some say it is OK, other say that they have not received guidance on this.

Just realize you are in uncharted waters, and you may end up being the test case. Which could mean arrest, confiscation of your firearms, legal fees, etc, even if you win in the end.

Remember, a lower is NOT a rifle. It could become a rifle, a pistol, or an SBR> Law only grandfatehrs RIFLES.