Poll: Are Suicide Attempts Enough to Take Your Guns?

[Topher]

As a person who has taken 3 people to the ER for suicidal thoughts here is my perspective.

In each case of my personal experience, the suicidal person placed more value on the lives of others than their own. They feel hopeless and worthless wondering why they can't attain what other healthy people obtain. There was no anger just different levels of resolve to stop feeling so bad inside.

Unfortunately, I have also been around people who did not value the lives of others. This is a personality disorder. Depression and suicide are usually mood disorders. One of the key differences is that people with personality disorders usually loose touch with reality and place no value on things like relationships and the lives of others. Mood disordered people have their conscience in tact and know right from wrong.

This quite often why notes are left. To console the living.

Can people with personality disorders become suicidal? Yes they can, but most often they are the homicidal type.

The bottom line is mental illness is a bitch. The doctors and therapist have to work to either re-wire the brain or chemically re balance the brain. And... They have to this without understanding how our brains fully work.

Interested to hear what others say. This is based on my experience and educational back ground.

Chris

 

[fivepointstar]

EVERYONE please play fair!!!

as I said earlier...I don't think there is a right answer! THerefore, whatever you say is not wrong nor is it right? Please don't go after anyone over their opinions.

Confiscation is NOT PERMAMENT!!! I think it was NamesTaken who mentioned that its only temporary and the person will get them back. as in the 77r and 4473, its not a disqualifier so NO, its not going to keep them from having guns nor owning guns in the future.

Please keep it Civil

 

[fivepointstar]

As a person who has taken 3 people to the ER for suicidal thoughts here is my perspective.

In each case of my personal experience, the suicidal person placed more value on the lives of others than their own. They feel hopeless and worthless wondering why they can't attain what other healthy people obtain. There was no anger just different levels of resolve to stop feeling so bad inside.

Unfortunately, I have also been around people who did not value the lives of others. This is a personality disorder. Depression and suicide are usually mood disorders. One of the key differences is that people with personality disorders usually loose touch with reality and place no value on things like relationships and the lives of others. Mood disordered people have their conscience in tact and know right from wrong.

This quite often why notes are left. To console the living.

Can people with personality disorders become suicidal? Yes they can, but most often they are the homicidal type.

The bottom line is mental illness is a bitch. The doctors and therapist have to work to either re-wire the brain or chemically re balance the brain. And... They have to this without understanding how our brains fully work.

Interest to hear what others say. This is based on my experience and educational back ground.


Chris

Interesting perspective Chris!!! so what do you think YES or NO based on that?
thanks!

 

[Brychan]

As Rusty said it is a slippery slope, define suicidal tendencies. Wanting to cause harm or death to ones self. This could mean different things to different people and if the government is involved would be as clear cut as the rest of our gun laws.

Example # 1 Sally tries to cut her wrists, but the cuts are too shallow to do any real harm..Take her firearms

#2 Joe drives way too fast, likes to sky drive, and cliff dive must have a death wish therefor wishes to harm himself = suicidal tendencies ...Take his guns.

#3 Sam smokes, eats lots of bacon, killing himself slowly = suicidal tendencies...take his guns.

#4 Fred is having major drama in his life, can't take it anymore and is mad at the world to boot, he hops in his car goes to the store purchases one item. Cruises around until he sees a large group of people hits the gas and plows through the crowd killing 3, injuring 8 more 2 of whom will die later and 3 who will be in wheel chairs for the rest of their lives. When the car comes to a stop he opens his purchase and drinks it, liquid plummer dies before the police can ..take his guns.

Save me from the government and well meaning people going to where the shouldn't.

 

[fivepointstar]

As Rusty said it is a slippery slope, define suicidal tendencies. Wanting to cause harm or death to ones self. This could mean different things to different people and if the government is involved would be as clear cut as the rest of our gun laws.

Example # 1 Sally tries to cut her wrists, but the cuts are too shallow to do any real harm..Take her firearms

#2 Joe drives way too fast, likes to sky drive, and cliff dive must have a death wish therefor wishes to harm himself = suicidal tendencies ...Take his guns.

#3 Sam smokes, eats lots of bacon, killing himself slowly = suicidal tendencies...take his guns.

#4 Fred is having major drama in his life, can't take it anymore and is mad at the world to boot, he hops in his car goes to the store purchases one item. Cruises around until he sees a large group of people hits the gas and plows through the crowd killing 3, injuring 8 more 2 of whom will die later and 3 who will be in wheel chairs for the rest of their lives. When the car comes to a stop he opens his purchase and drinks it, liquid plummer dies before the police can ..take his guns.

Save me from the government and well meaning people going to where the shouldn't.

I can see your point. how about #4 Joe lost his job and his wife. He's a heavy alcoholic and has contemplated suicide. He's told his family he wants to end it using his guns? where would you stand on Joe?

thanks for your perspective!!! FPS

 

[SkunkWerX]

Rusty is correct, and here is another reason:

Form 4473 Question 11.f. Have you ever been adjudicated Mentally Defective? have you ever been committed to a mental facility?

The poll question has merit, but it short circuits a more complicate process.
Police report, clinical review by certified doctors, and finally review by a judge and adjudication (decision). We invite a land of Jack Boot Thugs if we simply give carte blanche to PD's to yank guns at their discretion (no insult to our finest here, talking about the system itself).

So what do we do about LEO responding to a reported suicide attempt?
Government confiscation of ANYTHING should be absolute last resort. First, was it an actual attempt, with a firearm in hand? or was it just a guy who was pissed off, "saying" he wants to blow his brains out?
As a first resort, a friend, neighbor or relative should secure the firearms temporarily until a full review can be done. Confiscation of property, by the .Gov should be the last resort, not the first.

OK OK, but SKunk we have to do something!! Well, let me counter the thought of confiscation with this..... The suicide suspect, the next day, can walk into ANY gun store, fill out a 4473, answer it TRUTHFULLY, and walk out with another firearm.
So what have we accomplished by letting the authorities confiscate the day prior?

The slippery slope is the best argument, where does it end? Before too long, if someone raises their voice they will be deemed "violent" and have their guns confiscated. The slippery slope is why we have strict gun laws in MD.

As a final note, if you know someone who is having a rough time, mentally, see to it they are offered help, and that their spouse and/or family is monitoring the situation.


I doubt there is a person on this board who wouldn't gladly hold someone's firearms in their safe, until such time they could seek help, or be given an "all clear" from family, or a professional care giver. Government confiscation of property should the the LAST option.

 

[fivepointstar]

OK....let me change it up a bit:

Its my experience that people who contemplate suicide, attempt suicide, or commit suicide and are gun owners will use a firearm in their attempt (or have it present when contemplating). Of course, a suicide with a firearm is almost always successful.

What about this scenario....if a firearm is introduced into comtemplate or attempt?

 

[Brychan]

Sell him a box of ammo, If someone truly wants to kill themselves they will. But I would hope his wife had him committed for treatment. The guns should be left in the home in case the wife needs to protect her family while he is getting help.

 

[teratos]

Psychology and psychiatry are sciences. Much of what they do follows the "scientific method", and calling them pseudosciences is just not correct. That being said, they are inexact sciences because the human psyche is so fluid, complex and variable that it is very difficult to ever come to a concrete answer on anything. People's moods can change over the slightest thing, it is like trying to exactly predict the path of a feather falling from the top of the Empire State Building.

Suicide is a complex thing. MOST people who are suicidal DO NOT want to hurt other people, and ARE NOT homicidal. They are just in an unbearable amount of psychological pain, and see no other way out. A couple of earlier posts said that most people who kill themselves are also homicidal or something to that affect. Most suicides occur in private when people are alone. They are not at all interested in hurting people, and in face, I would venture to day, would be mortified at the prospect.

I have always contended that if you took 100 "suicidal" people, and put them on a locked ward with a big cup of cyanide in the back, that cup would most often remain untouched. Usually it is a cry for help. People who successfully suicide are people who don't tell anybody, and come up with a very lethal plan. If a guy has a cabinet full of guns and takes a bottle of aspirin, or cuts his wirsts, then calls 911 or a friend, they are not serious about the attempt. Sometimes people accidentally succeed. I saw a young man who washed down a family sized bottle of Extra Strength Tylenol with a bottle of vodka. He let people know the next morning. He said it was a cry for help, he was just upset that his girlfriend dumped him, and reconized it was stupid. Unfortunately, a week later he died of liver failure.

There are a few things that can be said about people who are suicidal

1. They are psychologically unstable
2. They are most certainly a danger to themselves, they are a potential danger to others. We DO hear about murder/suicides because the media loves the drama, and they are tragic
3. It is generally temporary, and with the proper assistance and time, these folks go on to lead normal lives

I vote yes on this question. Again, a couple of reasons for this:

1. These people are a potential danger to others
2. These people are NOT of sound mind

There is also the question of liability. If LEO, or physicans note that someone is suicidal, and they release them to home where there are guns and they do something......I don't think I need to go into the shit storm that will happen in the courts. Everyone is responsible except the guy who did it. The burden of deeming someone not psychologically sound is not on the State. This is generally done by licensed physicians and psychologists. It takes 2. The person has to be a danger to themselves or others, and they get a hearing within 3 days of being involuntarily admitted.

Again, i think the most important thing to realize is these people are NOT psychologically sound. It may well be temporary, but there is the potential for murder/suicides, and if this can be prevented, it should be. Any Right ends where it causes irreparable harm to the rights of others. Ending someone's life clearly infringes on their rights, wouldn't you say?

 

[teratos]

Rusty is correct, and here is another reason:

Form 4473 Question 11.f. Have you ever been adjudicated Mentally Defective? have you ever been committed to a mental facility?

The poll question has merit, but it short circuits a more complicate process.
Police report, clinical review by certified doctors, and finally review by a judge and adjudication (decision). We invite a land of Jack Boot Thugs if we simply give carte blanche to PD's to yank guns at their discretion (no insult to our finest here, talking about the system itself).

So what do we do about LEO responding to a reported suicide attempt?
Government confiscation of ANYTHING should be absolute last resort. First, was it an actual attempt, with a firearm in hand? or was it just a guy who was pissed off, "saying" he wants to blow his brains out?
As a first resort, a friend, neighbor or relative should secure the firearms temporarily until a full review can be done. Confiscation of property, by the .Gov should be the last resort, not the first.

OK OK, but SKunk we have to do something!! Well, let me counter the thought of confiscation with this..... The suicide suspect, the next day, can walk into ANY gun store, fill out a 4473, answer it TRUTHFULLY, and walk out with another firearm.
So what have we accomplished by letting the authorities confiscate the day prior?

The slippery slope is the best argument, where does it end? Before too long, if someone raises their voice they will be deemed "violent" and have their guns confiscated. The slippery slope is why we have strict gun laws in MD.

As a final note, if you know someone who is having a rough time, mentally, see to it they are offered help, and that their spouse and/or family is monitoring the situation.


I doubt there is a person on this board who wouldn't gladly hold someone's firearms in their safe, until such time they could seek help, or be given an "all clear" from family, or a professional care giver. Government confiscation of property should the the LAST option.

I agree, the option should be there for a family member to take the firearms. I think the whole "mentally defective" thing is going to be challenged in the future. It is very possible to be temporarily "mentally defective" (I hate that term), and get better. If you are a soldier coming back from Iraq and seek treatment for PTSD, you can be barred from owning firearms. Not right at all. Prior problems should not get in the way of the exercise of a fundamental right. People who are in the midst of a psychological crisis or meltdown should not, however, have access to firearms.

 

[Brychan]

OK....let me change it up a bit:

Its my experience that people who contemplate suicide, attempt suicide, or commit suicide and are gun owners will use a firearm in their attempt (or have it present when contemplating). Of course, a suicide with a firearm is almost always successful.

What about this scenario....if a firearm is introduced into comtemplate or attempt?

Again the person needs to be removed for evaluation and help. Leave the tool behind. What if the guy was a lumber jack would you automatically take his chainsaws and axes and leave him with all the other stuff in the house. Rather than trying to do a band aid of take the guns each situation needs to be handled as needed.
Caught a episode of Alaska Troops or whatever its called, wife called 911 because the husband was drunk and making threats of killing himself. The trooper accessed the situation and had the wife called their son to come over and take all the firearms for safe keeping and the wife went to spend the night with a friend and the left the hubby home to sleep it off. The trooper did a good job.

 

[CWood]

I voted yes if the person is a "Danger to himself and others" and I don't like the answer. I do believe that there should be a process to get the rights and weapons back. As for SBC they can always buy an airsoft and use that. I can't come up with a good solution for this.

 

[Topher]

Interesting perspective Chris!!! so what do you think YES or NO based on that?
thanks!

My perspective is tainted.
I have dealt with issues very close to home like this one.
If a person wants to kill them self, they don't need a gun.

I voted "NO" mostly because of my experience.

It is a can of worms, as many others have stated. What if someone else in the house has firearms? Can the police come in at take some else's fire arms?

I don't want anyone hurt but taking away the guns does not solve the problem. Take the person away... and get them treatment... if that is possible. (most of the time it is not)

If a person is suicidal should their car be taken away? Cars kill far more people than guns do?

Again, I respect others opinions... these are the inner ramblings of middle aged, over fed, gun enthusiast.

Chris

 

[Topher]

Again the person needs to be removed for evaluation and help. Leave the tool behind. What if the guy was a lumber jack would you automatically take his chainsaws and axes and leave him with all the other stuff in the house. Rather than trying to do a band aid of take the guns each situation needs to be handled as needed.
Caught a episode of Alaska Troops or whatever its called, wife called 911 because the husband was drunk and making threats of killing himself. The trooper accessed the situation and had the wife called their son to come over and take all the firearms for safe keeping and the wife went to spend the night with a friend and the left the hubby home to sleep it off. The trooper did a good job.

+1

 

[williamkostka]

i also voted yes to the poll question. this individual shot at a law enforcement officer, obviously intending to do harm to another individual. with three prior suicide attempts, the next one could involve multiple innocent victims and then the individual turning the gun on himself for a easy exit. without the firearms he may be more apt to a different route (bay bridge jump/hanging/pills,etc.)

 

[livefast1]

I voted no. I sincerely believe most people with suicidal thoughts care more about others well being than their own. And for the crazies that wanna take someone with them, if you take away their guns they'd just fashion a bomb out of easily found items and then you would have a real mess to deal with.

 

[Jaybeez]

Rusty is correct, and here is another reason:

Form 4473 Question 11.f. Have you ever been adjudicated Mentally Defective? have you ever been committed to a mental facility?

"Adjudicated" and "Committed" are defined in the law outlining the 4473.

"Adjudicated as a mental defective.
(a) A determination by a court, board,
commission, or other lawful authority that
a person, as a result of marked subnormal
intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency,
condition, or disease:
(1) Is a danger to himself or to others;
or
(2) Lacks the mental capacity to
contract or manage his own affairs.
(b) The term shall include—
(1) A finding of insanity by a court
in a criminal case; and
(2) Those persons found incompetent
to stand trial or found not guilty by
reason of lack of mental responsibility
pursuant to articles 50a and 72b of the
Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10
U.S.C. 850a, 876b."

"Committed to a mental institution. A
formal commitment of a person to a mental
institution by a court, board, commission,
or other lawful authority. The term
includes a commitment to a mental institution
involuntarily. The term includes commitment
for mental defectiveness or
mental illness. It also includes commitments
for other reasons, such as for drug
use. The term does not include a person
in a mental institution for observation or a
voluntary admission to a mental institution."

"(5) In the case of an applicant who
has been adjudicated a mental defective
or committed to a mental institution,
a copy of the order of a court, board,
commission, or other lawful authority
that made the adjudication or ordered
the commitment, any petition that
sought to have the applicant so adjudicated
or committed, any medical records
reflecting the reasons for
commitment and diagnoses of the applicant,
and any court order or finding of
a court, board, commission, or other
lawful authority showing the applicant's
discharge from commitment, restoration
of mental competency and the restoration
of rights;"

"(e) In addition to meeting the requirements
of paragraph (d) of this section, an
applicant who has been adjudicated a
mental defective or committed to a mental
institution will not be granted relief unless
the applicant was subsequently determined
by a court, board, commission, or
other lawful authority to have been restored
to mental competency, to be no
longer suffering from a mental disorder,
and to have had all rights restored."


Md law also defines these too.

 

[fivepointstar]

Right now its at about a 60-40 split!! as I thought it would

I don't think there's a right answer to this and I don't beleive its a matter of convincing the other to change sides. THanks for keeping it civil.

 

[matt_b89]

i'd just have a family member take them away and get there ass to counseling right away. Honestly I believe anyone who's suicidal needs a gun....I really don't because they could be a danger to others as well. We don't need anymore reasons for them to take our guns.

 

[HardHatMan]

Nope. If they're really determined to off themselves or anyone else, they don't need a gun to do it. They'll find another way - perhaps even a 'worse' one. RKBA is a natural right and shall not be infringed - I thought most of us have been over this?

Now, if somebody is certifiably crazy and needs to be institutionalized, that's another story. Suicide attempts surely may be part of that diagnosis. But, a suicide attempt by itself is not a reason to forcibly disarm somebody.

First post pretty much nails it.

Side note: My friend committed suicide last year with a gun. The police confiscated all of his fathers guns. Seemed weird to me.