PMP Certification - Project-Management-Professional-PMP

[Yoshi]

Are you going to the UMCP PM symposium on June 8-9? It's looking pretty neat.

Didn't know it was happening. I'll check it out. Thanks!

I typically attend the Gartner events at the National Harbor. 2-3 days and 15 PDUs each. Several tracks to choose from and lots of knowledge.

 

[Yoshi]

This thread now seems to be a perfect place to drop this job posting -

https://apps.facebook.com/job-magic...93057.html?isd_source=facebook&isd_pub=178588

We love the Short Pump area... Maybe I'll look into this. Thank!

 

[Yoshi]

Good point, agreed.

I am considering it, but the ISSMP is not often listed as a preferred cert; at least I haven't seen it. Still on the list for me though, maybe someday.

InfoSec + PMP is a good duo. I would love to augment my resume with InfoSec but that's a tough market to get into w/out experience.

 

[Minuteman]

InfoSec + PMP is a good duo. I would love to augment my resume with InfoSec but that's a tough market to get into w/out experience.

Agreed. I have InfoSec experience, during a couple assignments I served as the ISSO in those units; I did the accreditation packets for several different networks (different classification levels as well), and passed all (only a few) of my InfoSec inspections for those units. When I applied for InfoSec positions, I got a couple interviews. But I got the sense that because my experience was years ago, and I didn't have 'hands on' experience (configuring routers, updating patches, fixing CVE's, etc.) I was viewed as a junior InfoSec person (at best).

You are absolutely right, in todays competitive job arena, you've got to have it all, current experience, education, people skills, and the right certs. The InfoSec field is very popular, rewarding and even more competitive. If you want to do it in the gov sector, you also also have to have the clearance tickets... this is mission impossible for most of us.

 

[Brooklyn]

Its a joke-- but like many jokes is all about money-test fees--etc-

Just do it if you can..it a scam and so is most of what goes on in this area-

 

[Minuteman]

Update: I did do it; I got selected to go (for free) and did both the online training (35 hours) and the 'boot-camp' in classroom training (another 35 hours), we just finished yesterday afternoon. And, . and, ... I'm man enough to admit this here (to my friends...) I failed the final comprehensive training exam. We had 3.5 hours to take the exam, in a simulated testing center environment.

Here are my excuses:
1) In our class of ~20 students, I and one other person were late substitutions for the course, the others had 30 days to prepare and complete the 35 hour online course in preparation for this 'crash-course' and test. I had a few days, and wasn't certain I was actually going until Saturday afternoon, for a Tuesday start class, so about 2 days of actual prep.

2) There is a lot of material, you can't just memorize a bunch of formulas, definitions and info to pass the test. I read there are 5000 valid test questions that they select from (which are kept secret until you take the test; unlike the Amateur Radio (HAM) test, where all questions are known). Also, many of the test questions are no joke and really require you to know all 47 processes, their inputs, output, tools/techniques and relationship with other processes. Here, take this is 75 question (free) online test and let me know how you do:http://www.oliverlehmann.com/pmp-self-test/75-free-questions.htm . The instructor said the test was designed so that even a seasoned/accomplished program manager can not pass the test unless they know the PMI methods, terms and material. So in that sense, for sure it's a racket.

3) I started the 'boot-camp' with high confidence, asking questions and commenting during the class; what little material I had absorbed in the few days prior seemed to be sticking and clicking. As the week went on, the volume and depth of information overwhelmed us. After each 10+ hour day of guided 'cramming', I was mentally exhausted and could not will my self to do the hours of additional required homework. I thought about how much money my company was paying all of us to attend this expensive class, the online materials, and how important it was that as many of us as possible pass. I couldn't sleep the night before the practice 'final exam', so I spent hours creating over 220+ digital 'flashcards' with this hope that it would help me pass the test and continue my studies after the test. I think I would have been better served if I could have just got a good nights sleep.


Test scoring: A member of this forum and took the training with me, even he only scored in the 80's (highest I heard of anyone scoring was a colleague who scored a 86), I consider 70 failing, and several of us scored below 70. Lowest was about 50. That means they still got ~50% of 175 questions right within the time limit. So overall we did ok - good as a class. Guidance was that if you scored 80 or above, there is a 98% chance you will pass the actual PMP test if you take it immediately (within a couple weeks). Those that scored above a 70 were told to study another 5+ hours before taking the actual PMP test. Those that scored above a 50 were told to study another 20 hours, and take a couple more practice tests until they were consistently scoring 80% or better, before attempting the actual test.

What's next? Well, this is a humbling experience, and a total failure; that is unless I don't continue to study on my own and ultimately challenge and pass the real PMP test. So, that's what's next for me; I'm going to start incorporating PMP terminology into my everyday life, and carve out an hour or two on most days to study with the hope of scoring at least 80% on a couple practice tests and taking the real exam in another month or so. I'm going to cut way back on my range time, and other fun activities, at least until I get this knocked out. I also have to take the IDPA SO recertification test very soon, I put it aside for the PMP studies, but need to knock it out pronto.

Any sage advice appreciated, as always.

 

[Brooklyn]

What ever you do... don't drink the cool aid..

Just learn the game... but rember what Eisenhower said about planning...

The PMP.. really is of little value... that's why its prized so much..

 

[Minuteman]

What ever you do... don't drink the cool aid..

Just learn the game... but rember what Eisenhower said about planning...

The PMP.. really is of little value... that's why its prized so much..

Little value?

In some sense I agree, a good project manager probably won't benefit much from the teachings of the PMP. But if you look at the salaries folks with PMP certification are fetching, it boggles the mind and is far beyond anything I ever dreamed of making. That is if one can leverage it.

 

[Brooklyn]

Little value?

In some sense I agree, a good project manager probably won't benefit much from the teachings of the PMP. But if you look at the salaries folks with PMP certification are fetching, it boggles the mind and is far beyond anything I ever dreamed of making. That is if one can leverage it.

That's price...not value..

One thing I like about pmp..it keeps managers busy so I can get my work done..

I am not kidding..

Sometimes form follows function.. Sometimes it obscures it.

Nothing of value ever needs to be forced...that's clue one.

Clue two is the number of folks making a living selling books and training..

In what universe is form valued over function... The world of the federal government..

That's clue three.

I only wonder how long before the consultant industry reinvents it as " something completely the same" as the pythons say...

Just remember what Eisenhower said and you will be fit for useful work...pmp or no pmp.

 

[erwos]

Nothing of value ever needs to be forced...that's clue one.

Not everyone recognizes value without being forced to use a process, at least at first. In any event, the PMBOK doesn't "force" you to do anything.

Clue two is the number of folks making a living selling books and training..

This describes every useful methodology ever. I mean, plenty of people are selling books on Agile, are you seriously going to propose that Agile has no value?

Follow the money: PMI is a non-profit. This isn't a profit proposition for them.

In what universe is form valued over function... The world of the federal government.. That's clue three.

I think PMP training materials value form more than real life does, but realistically, they're trying to help you pass the test, and the test does require you to talk in the PMBOK's language. Again, this is similar to many other certification in other useful methodologies. I was a PM symposium the other day, and rest assured that the emphasis was on tools and process, not the 5 process groups, even amongst the really hardcore PMI folks.

Anyone's who interested in being a great PM would be well advised to take advantage of the PMBOK and other such resources. Unfortunately, it seems like very few PMs are interested in excelling at their profession.

 

[Maverick0313]

Update: I did do it; I got selected to go (for free) and did both the online training (35 hours) and the 'boot-camp' in classroom training (another 35 hours), we just finished yesterday afternoon. And, . and, ... I'm man enough to admit this here (to my friends...) I failed the final comprehensive training exam. We had 3.5 hours to take the exam, in a simulated testing center environment.

Here are my excuses:
1) In our class of ~20 students, I and one other person were late substitutions for the course, the others had 30 days to prepare and complete the 35 hour online course in preparation for this 'crash-course' and test. I had a few days, and wasn't certain I was actually going until Saturday afternoon, for a Tuesday start class, so about 2 days of actual prep.

2) There is a lot of material, you can't just memorize a bunch of formulas, definitions and info to pass the test. I read there are 5000 valid test questions that they select from (which are kept secret until you take the test; unlike the Amateur Radio (HAM) test, where all questions are known). Also, many of the test questions are no joke and really require you to know all 47 processes, their inputs, output, tools/techniques and relationship with other processes. Here, take this is 75 question (free) online test and let me know how you do:http://www.oliverlehmann.com/pmp-self-test/75-free-questions.htm . The instructor said the test was designed so that even a seasoned/accomplished program manager can not pass the test unless they know the PMI methods, terms and material. So in that sense, for sure it's a racket.

3) I started the 'boot-camp' with high confidence, asking questions and commenting during the class; what little material I had absorbed in the few days prior seemed to be sticking and clicking. As the week went on, the volume and depth of information overwhelmed us. After each 10+ hour day of guided 'cramming', I was mentally exhausted and could not will my self to do the hours of additional required homework. I thought about how much money my company was paying all of us to attend this expensive class, the online materials, and how important it was that as many of us as possible pass. I couldn't sleep the night before the practice 'final exam', so I spent hours creating over 220+ digital 'flashcards' with this hope that it would help me pass the test and continue my studies after the test. I think I would have been better served if I could have just got a good nights sleep.


Test scoring: A member of this forum and took the training with me, even he only scored in the 80's (highest I heard of anyone scoring was a colleague who scored a 86), I consider 70 failing, and several of us scored below 70. Lowest was about 50. That means they still got ~50% of 175 questions right within the time limit. So overall we did ok - good as a class. Guidance was that if you scored 80 or above, there is a 98% chance you will pass the actual PMP test if you take it immediately (within a couple weeks). Those that scored above a 70 were told to study another 5+ hours before taking the actual PMP test. Those that scored above a 50 were told to study another 20 hours, and take a couple more practice tests until they were consistently scoring 80% or better, before attempting the actual test.

What's next? Well, this is a humbling experience, and a total failure; that is unless I don't continue to study on my own and ultimately challenge and pass the real PMP test. So, that's what's next for me; I'm going to start incorporating PMP terminology into my everyday life, and carve out an hour or two on most days to study with the hope of scoring at least 80% on a couple practice tests and taking the real exam in another month or so. I'm going to cut way back on my range time, and other fun activities, at least until I get this knocked out. I also have to take the IDPA SO recertification test very soon, I put it aside for the PMP studies, but need to knock it out pronto.

Any sage advice appreciated, as always.

Most importantly....do NOT get discouraged! I scored 67,67, and 69 on my three "official" actual PMR exams. No joy. Talked to my instructor at length. Our class was below 50% pass rate (17 people). Her answer was ALWAYS "you need to think like a PMP." OK. Well, I have been a PM off and on for roughly 21 years, most recently a $10M/year contract. Always had great award fees, low turnover. Doesn't matter. I just can't get the hang of this. Accepted it. Retiring this fall. But...when I looked up at that screen those three times and saw "YOU HAVE FAILED"....it hurt. And. I got over it. But it took a while.

 

[Brooklyn]

Not everyone recognizes value without being forced to use a process, at least at first. In any event, the PMBOK doesn't "force" you to do anything.


This describes every useful methodology ever. I mean, plenty of people are selling books on Agile, are you seriously going to propose that Agile has no value?

Follow the money: PMI is a non-profit. This isn't a profit proposition for them.


I think PMP training materials value form more than real life does, but realistically, they're trying to help you pass the test, and the test does require you to talk in the PMBOK's language. Again, this is similar to many other certification in other useful methodologies. I was a PM symposium the other day, and rest assured that the emphasis was on tools and process, not the 5 process groups, even amongst the really hardcore PMI folks.

Anyone's who interested in being a great PM would be well advised to take advantage of the PMBOK and other such resources. Unfortunately, it seems like very few PMs are interested in excelling at their profession.

Agile is not new.. Its value is much overstated. Non profit? No trainer is paid...

Our industry is a serious of fads restating and repackaging best practices undernew names for nearly 40 years...it very successful...


He's the final clue...project management looks a lot like people manangement which looks a lot like leadership and picking the right people..

Since good leaders tend to self select for things like PMP..the early success is easily a no op.

In time even bad managers and poor leaders will PMp and the cycle will repeat under a new name.

Or we could stop looking for the magic bullet.. Nothing is new..not even this analysis..

Read Brooks. Take him at his word.

PMP can keep managers out of my way...but that's about it. Its really good at keeping senior managers out of meetings were their input could be fatal to the project.

Let no one manage a project they could not actually perform the work of. ...instant fix for baseless estimates, artificial precision, and planing past the horizon of knowablity..

Take Eisenhower at his word as well.. Stop writing project plans... Start learning to lead.

 

[erwos]

Agile is not new.. Its value is much overstated.

I'm now wondering if you've ever had any significant experience as a project manager or leading an Agile project, because I don't think anyone who's used an Agile development method properly could write that with a straight face. (I do both, along with managing projects with a more linear schedule.)

He's the final clue...project management looks a lot like people manangement which looks a lot like leadership and picking the right people..

A good project manager should be a good leader; this does not mean every good leader is a good project manager. All the people skills in the world are not going to replace planning, execution, and quality control processes, never mind risk management or financial management. And, notably, you do not always get to pick your people.

Read Brooks. Take him at his word.

I have. What Brooks wrote in the Mythical Man Month about was hardly in contradiction to modern planning tools and techniques. Indeed, they've greatly informed them.

Let no one manage a project they could not actually perform the work of. ...instant fix for baseless estimates, artificial precision, and planing past the horizon of knowablity..

Yet, bizarrely, you seem to not understand that the cutting edge of project management is tackling these issues. You need to read "Extreme Project Management". It will probably be eye-opening to you. And, just so we're clear: I'm PM for software projects, and I was a damned good Java and C++ programmer back in the day. I'm not some B-school grad who's never done what they're asking others to do. I believe in this stuff because I've seen my time as a developer wasted because project managers didn't have their stuff together. You can have a team of all-stars, but if they're not doing the right work at the right time while maintaining quality, you're going to have a project failure.

 

[Brooklyn]

I do only agile.. my boss does waterfall.

Been goining on 30 years..

And its not mythical man month I am refering to..

Its no silver bullet.

As a tool of project problem detection about 10 % of pmp is very useful.. of course its also the part that does not require a 500 page book and a cottage industry of boot camps to learn.. thus it may be useful to managers but not the rent seeking behaviors of the consultant class.. thus a criticize of PMP as a religion..

Meanwhile. Project plan as a good isomorphic model of true project state vs planed project state is an excellent diagnostic. of the project as well as the plan. ...but in practice poor managers will use the decision support tools to evaluate performance of employees thus causing a predictable feedback loop of lies leading to failure. We saw that most notably in how Blomberg used comstat.

Now again cut the PMP BS down to a 10% core..

Make sure decision are made at the right level..that is almost never the level at which the org wants then made for reasons bet yond the scope of PMP and thus beyond its power to remedy..


PMP is no silver bullet..its value is inversely proportional to its need. Good manages and leaders will show less improvement because they are already doing pretty well on the organizational disfunction scale..
Those most in need of PMP will missapply it.. mostly looking for a silver bullet that does not exist..and following organizational patterns of dysfunction will use it the manage personal and will actually be worse off.

Now.. who invented the first agile process and when?
And that's just who codified it..

I know its was being done in the late 1950..in McCarthy's lab..

Maybe if we stop renaming and marketing and actually learn our trade....

 

[gamer_jim]

You need to read "Extreme Project Management". It will probably be eye-opening to you.

Thanks for the suggestion. I added this to my kindle wish list. I'm a Systems Analyst now but my organization tends to make SA's do the real PM anyway, even though most of our PMs are certified. I suppose it's a good skill to have and will help me in my next job.

 

[erwos]

I do only agile.. my boss does waterfall.

Been goining on 30 years..

Uh huh. I'm not an idiot; many of the techniques that are commonly used in Agile are not new. But I seriously doubt you've been using a formal Agile methodology in a team setting for 30 years. Agile without process isn't Agile, it's doing whatever the hell you want and hoping it comes together at the end.

 

[Brooklyn]

Uh huh. I'm not an idiot; many of the techniques that are commonly used in Agile are not new. But I seriously doubt you've been using a formal Agile methodology in a team setting for 30 years. Agile without process isn't Agile, it's doing whatever the hell you want and hoping it comes together at the end.

I also notice you claimed zero substantive experience with project management. I'd really question why you're weighing in if you don't even work in the field.

I am a victim of project management..
The one responsible for the object of the exercise..

And while you would be no project manager at all if you did not claim credit for the moon and the tides.. projects have been managed for eons before PMP and they will be managed eons after it is gone.... long gone..

Now if you want to actually improve project management... rather than its pay scale... you might be interested in all the ways it actually fails in practice or not.

A formal agile process.. OK. Much better than an informal waterfall... or a a spiral of waterfall...or a waterfall of spirals..

Or a gagle of scrums...


You conceed its all repackaged.. yet this time its true love..the silver bullet... OK you win...

This time it really is different....

 

[hodgepodge]

Yeah, PMP is just a test, a certification and a process. So?

I'm about to retire from the federal government with a Level II DAWIA certification in Project Management. To get the pay and responsibility matching my experience, I need the PMP.

Current plan is to begin studying now, hit it hard in the 2 weeks after retirement, take an expensive, but reportedly excellent, boot camp, followed by the test.

It is a coachable exam. When I heard that it was multiple choice, my anxiety went way down. I've also been told that after several practice exams, that is after 1000-1500 questions, the passing percentage definitely goes up.

Besides, Minuteman's promised to copy down all the correct answers for me.

 

[erwos]

I am a victim of project management..
The one responsible for the object of the exercise..

The bizarre thing is, you seem to not want the situation to change, or you think it's incapable of changing. We'll never be batting a hundred, but we sure as hell can do better than we're doing now. Your boss is probably a horrible PM, it's true, but judging all of us on his bad example is wrong.

And while you would be no project manager at all if you did not claim credit for the moon and the tides.. projects have been managed for eons before PMP and they will be managed eons after it is gone.... long gone..

This doesn't mean that 1) they were managed well or 2) that they were of the complexity of projects today. People were eating food before pasteurization - that doesn't mean that pasteurization is useless.

Now if you want to actually improve project management... rather than its pay scale... you might be interested in all the ways it actually fails in practice or not.

This is very much what practioners are interested in. While it's true that academia is getting more involved, the only thing that matters in the end is results. And, to be blunt, there is compelling reason to think that what I'm advocating does help obtain results:
http://www.pmi.org/~/media/PDF/learning/pulse-of-the-profession-2015.ashx

You conceed its all repackaged.. yet this time its true love..the silver bullet... OK you win...

This time it really is different....

I never claimed the PMBOK was a silver bullet. There's no such thing. But I'd sure like to go into battle with some training and tools that other people have used to some success, rather than assume I'll figure it out along the way - or worse, assume I already know it.

Is it all repackaged in terms of the PMBOK (which is what the PMP test is on)? Sure. The whole ****ing point of the PMBOK is that it's stuff PMs have used before. The PMBOK is not the whole of project management knowledge. It advances every year. People try new stuff, and shocker, sometimes it really is better.

 

[Brooklyn]

I told you how to change it.
1. Stop searching for a silver bullet.. while you may not.. many do..and the PMP or bust approach fits that pattern.
2. I said about 10% of pmp has good value and roi start with that... do not attempt any more until you see value.

3. If you are getting results be candid enough to conceded that PMP is at best only part of that... as Eisenhower said about plans vs planing.. any focus on process improvements will have value simply because of the mindset it represents.

But know also that many would prefer to sell a new process improvement plan of the month.. and that they succeed also tells you to be on your guard. .. is it PMP or is it the fact that we care enough to do PMP.

4. As PMP matures into the must have check box... there will be 2 effects...the self selection dynamic will abate...providing the first real evidence of something beyond the placebo effect
..And. folks will bork it up totally since they do not understand that its not a silver bullet..in response industry will discount these experiences and talk about how PMP does not fail.. the users just don't do it right..

5. Brooks called it in no Silver Bullet.. but senior decision makers are well on the way to destroying what value PMP can in fact provide.. the only way to prevent this is to not drink the cool said and call the fad out.

6. It is because I have seen and analised these failures that I not only think things can change but also how..

You must fight the hype.. the hype will kill the good with the bad..

More critical commentary and less boosterism is a good start..