Padded buffer tubes ok? ATF Brace rule questions.

[FrankAR15]

Going back to the OP's original question (with a twist), if the pistol has a brace that can be removed entirely and leaves nothing but the butt end of the pistol (no buffer tube, like a Sig MPX), will that make it ATF compliant? I know, I know... before it's all said and done, there will be so many interpretations of what this rule means, not even God will be able to decipher it, which I'm pretty sure was the intent from the start, but I thought I'd throw it out there for yucks.

The way I understand it, you can just remove the brace from an AR type pistol, if the buffer tube is a functional part of the pistol. You have to trash or mutilate the brace so that it can not be reattached. Idk… ‍♂️

 

[outrider58]

It would be great if the estimated 35 million pistol braces resulted in 192 applications for SBR's.

That would end the rule quickly.

^^^This^^^

 

[erwos]

When will people tell the atf to f them self? asking for a friend.

I've noticed a lotta billy bad-asses these days who are preaching non-compliance when asked to remove their compliance devices. If you were gonna tell the ATF to screw off, you'd already have a proper stock on there and would post pictures of your illegal SBR to prove it. Again: you already complied! You are not in a position to have moral authority to look down at other people who are complying as much as you. If someone looks at their life situation and decides this isn't the hill for them or their dog to die on, that's their choice, not yours.

OP, I will say that I think a pad that can't interact with your shoulder, like the old pre-brace-era pistol brace tube pads, are fine. I think putting a tennis ball on the end would be tempting fate.

 

[randomuser]

I've noticed a lotta billy bad-asses these days who are preaching non-compliance when asked to remove their compliance devices. If you were gonna tell the ATF to screw off, you'd already have a proper stock on there and would post pictures of your illegal SBR to prove it. Again: you already complied! You are not in a position to have moral authority to look down at other people who are complying as much as you. If someone looks at their life situation and decides this isn't the hill for them or their dog to die on, that's their choice, not yours.

OP, I will say that I think a pad that can't interact with your shoulder, like the old pre-brace-era pistol brace tube pads, are fine. I think putting a tennis ball on the end would be tempting fate.

I have posted many times on how a society can tell an authority to f off in a 1000% legit way without any ramifications that would come from it. . Nothing to do with being any type of billy guy. People think that telling them to f off is only done by a protest that will start a war or get you locked up. There are ways to protest better than holding sings so your voice gets heard(LOL) and make a harder statement that cannot get ignored. We just lack the unity to do so.

 

[erwos]

I have posted many times on how a society can tell an authority to f off in a 1000% legit way without any ramifications that would come from it. . Nothing to do with being any type of billy guy. People think that telling them to f off is only done by a protest that will start a war or get you locked up. There are ways to protest better than holding sings so your voice gets heard(LOL) and make a harder statement that cannot get ignored. We just lack the unity to do so.

You go first. Take off your brace, put on a stock, post pictures of your illegal SBR. Tell the authority to F off.

 

[TheBert]

You go first. Take off your brace, put on a stock, post pictures of your illegal SBR. Tell the authority to F off.

Most of the people in any situation preach "I'll give you my gun when you pry (or take) it from my cold, dead hands" or a similar sentiment, however, they are too warm and comfortable in their homes to actually follow through with their boast.

 

[workshop777]

I've noticed a lotta billy bad-asses these days who are preaching non-compliance when asked to remove their compliance devices. If you were gonna tell the ATF to screw off, you'd already have a proper stock on there and would post pictures of your illegal SBR to prove it. Again: you already complied! You are not in a position to have moral authority to look down at other people who are complying as much as you. If someone looks at their life situation and decides this isn't the hill for them or their dog to die on, that's their choice, not yours.

OP, I will say that I think a pad that can't interact with your shoulder, like the old pre-brace-era pistol brace tube pads, are fine. I think putting a tennis ball on the end would be tempting fate.

Thank you!

 

[Amalfi718]

Please let me know if I should start a new thread for my question. If I were to form 1 my pistol to make an SBR, does that mean it has to be run with a stock at all times and meet the 29" requirement in MD? Or, can I form 1 SBR the pistol, add a vertical foregrip (because of the approved stamp), and run it with a brace and not meet the 29" requirement? Or, could I form 1 SBR the pistol, have no stock, and have a vertical foregrip only, like for an SP5k?

I guess my question boils down to: if it's a form 1 SBR, does it always need to have a stock and meet 29" overall length?

Thank you.

 

[Doctor_M]

We all draw our on lines in the sand and decide how to respond based on our own values and judgments. I know what I'm going to do... and I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do.

 

[jrumann59]

Going back to the OP's original question (with a twist), if the pistol has a brace that can be removed entirely and leaves nothing but the butt end of the pistol (no buffer tube, like a Sig MPX), will that make it ATF compliant? I know, I know... before it's all said and done, there will be so many interpretations of what this rule means, not even God will be able to decipher it, which I'm pretty sure was the intent from the start, but I thought I'd throw it out there for yucks.

The ATF will provide compliance, so if you have MPX with no brace and they "deem" it so that ruling applies to the specific one yoou submitted if you have another MPX setup the exact same way you have to submit that one separately.

 

[jrumann59]

Please let me know if I should start a new thread for my question. If I were to form 1 my pistol to make an SBR, does that mean it has to be run with a stock at all times and meet the 29" requirement in MD? Or, can I form 1 SBR the pistol, add a vertical foregrip (because of the approved stamp), and run it with a brace and not meet the 29" requirement? Or, could I form 1 SBR the pistol, have no stock, and have a vertical foregrip only, like for an SP5k?

I guess my question boils down to: if it's a form 1 SBR, does it always need to have a stock and meet 29" overall length?

Thank you.

The ATF is making the assertion a brace is now a stock, so for it run with a brace legally it needs to be an SBR, but SBR then has to fall into the MD's OAL requirement. So if you want a super short PCC build you will need to forego the brace all together because you will never get to MD's OAL.

 

[Amalfi718]

The ATF is making the assertion a brace is now a stock, so for it run with a brace legally it needs to be an SBR, but SBR then has to fall into the MD's OAL requirement. So if you want a super short PCC build you will need to forego the brace all together because you will never get to MD's OAL.

Thank you. So a form 1 SBR PCC with a vertical grip and no stock or brace would be perfectly fine in MD?

 

[jrumann59]

The sad thing is many actually did not see this coming down the pike. I only started doing pistol things because of what I was expecting to happen. The minute I saw some of the newer pistol braces like SB Tacticals I knew this was going to be the next big ATF showdown. While I get the original purpose of the brace but what it morphed into is comical. NFA tax stamps whether they should be here are not is moot, currently the NFA is valid, but lets be honest most of the people that own braced pistols are not using them as intended most saw the pistol brace as an end around the NFA and it could have been until they started making braces that looked too much like stocks.

 

[jrumann59]

Thank you. So a form 1 SBR PCC with a vertical grip and no stock or brace would be perfectly fine in MD?

SBR has to reach OAL in MD, going to be hard to do without a stock/brace. Also pistols cannot have vertical fore grips, in the ATFs eyes a pistol with VFG is AOW which is a tax stamp.

 

[erwos]

Thank you. So a form 1 SBR PCC with a vertical grip and no stock or brace would be perfectly fine in MD?

That is an AOW, not an SBR. As far as I'm aware, MD is fine with your AOW.

I always knew this brace thing was, at best, a temporary state of affairs, so I Form 1'd everything that I needed short, and lived without the rest. If MD's ban ever gets overturned, I'll probably Form 1 a few more things and adjust OAL down on some others to < 29".

 

[erwos]

AOW, in the case of an AR, would have to be over 26" long. That's my understanding. It's a difficult point to find in print.

I thought "generic firearm" was VFG and > 26" OAL, whereas "AOW" was VFG and < 26" OAL.

 

[outrider58]

I used to have an excellent article on VFGs on pistols that are "others" (over 26") book marked, but when I went to it yesterday it came with a big warning about spyware so I deleted it.

In a search, I came up with this thread on calguns.net It was allegedly written by a retired FBI agent.

https://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1783483

Under Federal laws/regulations and past Federal court cases...

A firearm with a less than 16" barrel length and a greater than 26" overall length and no shoulder stock is a Title 1 Other.
A Title 1 Other can legally have a vertical forward grip attached to it.

A firearm with a less than 16" rifled barrel length and a less than 26" overall length and no shoulder stock is a Title 1 Handgun.
A Title 1 Handgun can not legally have a vertical forward grip attached to it.
In order to be legal, the Title 1 Handgun must be made into a BATFE approved Title 2 AOW before the vertical forward grip is attached to it.

In order to measure the overall length of a firearm to determine if it is a Title 1 Handgun, Title 1 Other, or Title 2 AOW; if the firearm has an arm stabilizing brace, then it is removed prior to measuring or, if the arm stabilizing brace is permanently attached, then it is folded/collapsed.

This is because Title 1 Handgun, Title 1 Other, and Title 2 AOW are not intended to be fired from the shoulder, so it's overall length is measured in the shortest possible fireable configuration (arm brace folded/collapsed or removed).
^Since Title 1 Rifle, Title 1 Shotgun, Title 2 SBR, and Title 2 SBS are intended to be fired from the shoulder; their overall length is measured in the longest possible fireable configuration (stock open/extended).

While you can't interpret this as law, it is informative. I have never been able to nail this down with the ATF because I've never had an interest in a VFG on a pistol and thereby never asked them(ATF) for clarification. I would suggest anyone interested in VFGs on pistols to go to their website and ask them. They are very responsive to questions.

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives |

www.atf.gov

 

[outrider58]

I thought "generic firearm" was VFG and > 26" OAL, whereas "AOW" was VFG and < 26" OAL.

...and I am wrong calling it AOW. It's referred to as simply "other". It's not a long gun and it isn't a pistol.

(I deleted the post you quoted)

 

[INMY01TA]

Ok so I was watching a Colion Noir vid and he said an AR pistol can not have a red dot sight or any optic requiring eye relief.. I ordered a pistol buffer tube for my pistol but no red dots now either? Anyone heard of this?

 

[outrider58]

Ok so I was watching a Colion Noir vid and he said an AR pistol can not have a red dot sight or any optic requiring eye relief.. I ordered a pistol buffer tube for my pistol but no red dots now either? Anyone heard of this?

Unmagnified red dots are GTG AFAIK. There is no eye relief limit in red dots. The implication is, if an optic has a limited eye relief, a person will be forced to shoulder that weapon to use it(scope).

They can take their stupid scoring system and ram it up their collective asses.