Optics Recommendation for two different AR-15 rifles

[PapiBarcelona]

Aimpoint micro 4MOA dot on a Larue lower 1/3 with speed lever mount, standard pinned fixed front sight post and a rear flipup is what I got.

 

[fabsroman]

OP, some thoughts off the top of my head.

Spend some time thinking about what your overall goals are. On a budget and want to get the most for a set limited amount (if so, what's the top limit?), best "bang for the buck"...looking for value...want a decent scope but don't want to take a second mortgage out, or looking for the best you can get (and if so, is it best optic for HD, best for long range precision, best for 3 gun?). Based on looking at the ACOG, I'm thinking you're somewhere around category two.

With optics, you really do get what you pay for. General rule of thumb, if it's got a budget price and a lot of bells and whistles (like variable power, illuminated reticles (especially red & green options), parallax adjustment) the glass will suck and overall quality will be varying from garbage to OK for casual range use. Scopes named after birds of prey usually fall into this category. Also think of it like any other tool, matching the optic and rifle up best really depends on what the rifle's purpose is. Home defense, or do you really just take it to the range and like making small groups on paper? Long range precision, or hunting...where the ability to acquire the target quickly and get a round off within a 6-8 inch radius is more important than putting 4 subsequent shots as close as possible at ranges beyond 600 yds?

For home defense, I prefer a red dot if you don't have astigmatism. I'm preferential to AimPoint. Aimpoint Pro if you're on a budget (not a budget scope though), or Micro if you can spend the money and want more battery life and a lighter scope. Very fast target acquisition, but not conducive to longer range shooting with any degree of precision.

If the rifle's primary purpose is very general...might be HD, mostly will be range toy, might take it hunting, I like the idea of 1x? power scopes. For a variable 1x? power scope, I like Vortex or SWFA. You definitely get what you pay for here....it's very difficult to have a true 1X? scope that minimizes parallax and has good quality glass. If it's inexpensive, they're making concessions somewhere. Primary Arms or the Vortex Strike Eagle are both popular options, but they are definitely budget options (e.g. first category above). That's ok, but you should know that's what they are. I own a Strike Eagle...so I'm not knocking it too much...but it is what it is...and it ain't a Schmidt & Bender. 1X will not quite be 1X, and it won't be parallax free at that setting. The glass will be OK, but not as clear or bright and you'll get some fish eyeing. Eye relief won't be as generous. Spending a bit more money and getting a Vortex Viper starts moving you to the second category of scope and an SWFA HD or a Vortex Razor HD moves you somewhere in the high second and low third category.

Long range precision is a whole other discussion.

Just something to think about...most people spend a LOT of money on a really nice rifle and then look for a budget scope. Professionals generally spend at least as much on their optics, if not two to three times as much. Not saying that's what you should do...but the point is that optics are worth carefully thinking about when you choose to invest in them. If you're the kind of guy who would say that it doesn't make sense to save a few hundred by buying a DPMS over a Colt and getting a better overall quality rifle, then buying a primary arms scope probably doesn't make much sense either. If you're the kind of guy that says they both go bang and are fun, then Primary Arms will likely make you more than happy. I'm not being snobby...either is fine, but just be honest with yourself. Are you a recreational shooter who takes their rifle out every so often or are you a competitor (or looking to become one) and will use your equipment pretty hard.

Those are the harder questions to ask yourself...but spending the time to get clear on them will in the end make your choices easier (but maybe not for your wallet) and your overall satisfaction down the road higher.

Holy cow Batman. Most of that stuff I already know, but thank you for the bits that I did not know about.

As far as budget is concerned, I don't mind forking over the $2,400 for the VCOG if it is indeed worth twice the cost of the very similar Primary Arms scope.

As far as what the use is going to be for, I thought I had mentioned that in my OP, but just in case I didn't:

the AR-15 with the 16" barrel in .223 will be mostly used for punching paper and for hunting when .223 is an adequate cartridge for the job. So, I was leaning toward the ACOG for this rifle. Then, Mopar mentioned the VCOG, which was new to me, and I liked the idea of a variable power with a military style reticle. Right now, I am leaning toward the Primary Arms Platinum 1-8x with the ACSS reticle on it for this gun. Little easier to swallow $1,300 versus $2,400 for a rifle scope if they are very close to each other in quality. Primary Arms has some similar scopes in the $300-$400 range, which I might use on the other builds coming down the pike. Knowing me, it will still be a $1,000+ scope on the gun.

the AR-15 with the 11.5" barrel in .223 will be pretty much a home defense rifle. I doubt I would ever pick it over the rifle with the 16" barrel for hunting. So, that is why I wanted a red dot on it.

As far as the astygmatism is concerned, I am not aware that I have one. The red dot on my Aimpoint on my Mini 30 looks clear as day and nice and sharp. Once upon a time, Aimpoint was actually cheap.

Right now, I am liking the Trijicon MRO for the SBR and the Primary Arms Platinum 1-8x with the ACSS reticle for the 16" gun. The only scary part is that there this only 3 reviews of the Primary Arms scope. Granted, all 3 give the scope a pretty good review, but 3 is not a lot.

Edit to add: I forgot to address your final paragraph. As far as long term use is concerned, I have no idea what it will actually be. Right now, I don't get out of the house much for shooting or hunting. Before getting married and having kids, I shot clays competitively, killed waterfowl, doves, deer, crows, and a lot of other critters proficiently and prolificly (if that is a word), and was at the range quite often. Between work and kids, not so much nowadays, but the kids are getting interested in all of it. To give you some idea of price range for me, I have two rifles built with a ton of JP Rifle parts (e.g., barrel, BCG, bolt, handguard, recoil springs), I have a JP CR2 billet matched upper/lower waiting to be built, I have a Wilson Combat billet matched upper/lower waiting to be built, and the list goes on and on. Usually, I spend the same amount on a scope as I spend for the gun. Even my POS Knight muzzleloader got a $300 scope. I spent $500 on scopes for my centerfire bolt guns, but that was a crapton of money back in the mid 90's and they were top of the line Burris scopes. The Ruger rifles they went on cost less than the scopes at the time. So, in summary, I am willing to spend a good amount on a scope and never think about it again, even if the gun remains in the safe for the rest of my life and it is never even fired. Doubt it would never be fired, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it if that were the case. Again, my motto with almost every purchase, even outside of hunting/shooting, is "buy once, cry once, and hold onto it for life".

 

[GottaEat]

What about the new Trijicon 1-8 Accupower?

 

[fabsroman]

What about the new Trijicon 1-8 Accupower?

Had not checked it out, but I have now and now it is in the mix with the Primary Arms scope and the VCOG. Think the 16" rifle is going to give me a headache.

Pretty much settled on the MRO for the SBR.

 

[woodline]

If you're​ looking at Primary Arms, take a look at the Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x - lifetime warranty from Vortex and are quite popular scopes.

I believe the newest generation PA 1-6 that just came out in the past few weeks now has a lifetime warranty as well. Dunno if it is in stock or waitlisted. I like their BDC quite well. Not trying to take any business away from Vortex as they have treated me really well, and their Viper PST series is roughly the most I can responsibly spend on a magnified optic right now (got a new 5-25 on order). I expect either would be a good choice, but if anyone has any concerns about PA, I've always gotten good service from them.

 

[Major03]

fasbroman, OK...fwiw here are my suggestions for you.

HD gun...Aimpoint Micro H2 or CompM4. Hard to beat the battery life on an Aimpoint. Bulletproof scopes, and lightweight.

16" multi purpose gun. I don't know much about the Primary Arms Platinum line. I'd avoid the lower end Primary Arms scope or the Vortex Strike Eagle. They aren't a bad value per say...but based on your response you'll end up displeased with it in the long run. Since I'm recommending spending your money lol, consider the Vortex Razor HD line. Vortex has great customer service and their razor line is VERY VERY good glass and you'll find a TON of good reviews. My guess is Primary Arms started building a platinum line to compete with the viper and razor line.

In re hunting with a .223...ok for varmints but deer or anything bigger I'd stay away from. I'm pretty sure it isn't even legal to hunt deer with .223 in MD. BUT...consider building an SBR in .300 BLK. With supersonic loads, it's basically a 30-30 or a 7.62X39. The only thing you change is the barrel, everything else is the same (same bcg, bolt, magazines, etc). It uses faster burning pistol powders...so you can get away with shorter barrels and not lose much muzzle velocity. Suppressed, with sub sonic loads, it's very very quiet and a LOT of fun. For home defense, using a VMAX or similar bullet with controlled expansion, it'll hit harder and be more effective than a .223.

OK...I'll get off my 300 Blk soapbox

 

[outrider58]

in a couple months from now I will be asking you guys about an optic for an AR-15 in.300 BLK with a 10.5" barrel.

I use of of these on my 300 AAC SBR. It has a reticle specifically made for the 300 and/or 7.62 x 39.

http://www.primaryarms.com/primary-...300blk-7-62x39-reticle-pa1-6x24sfp-acss-300bo

 

[OrbitalEllipses]

Go ahead and spend $2300 on a VCOG. I did and it was garbage. Doesn't mean I don't love my TA33 ACOG, just means the VCOG is a poor product offering. Not daylight bright, no famous dual illumination, heavy, more expensive that competitors.

 

[fabsroman]

fasbroman, OK...fwiw here are my suggestions for you.

HD gun...Aimpoint Micro H2 or CompM4. Hard to beat the battery life on an Aimpoint. Bulletproof scopes, and lightweight.

16" multi purpose gun. I don't know much about the Primary Arms Platinum line. I'd avoid the lower end Primary Arms scope or the Vortex Strike Eagle. They aren't a bad value per say...but based on your response you'll end up displeased with it in the long run. Since I'm recommending spending your money lol, consider the Vortex Razor HD line. Vortex has great customer service and their razor line is VERY VERY good glass and you'll find a TON of good reviews. My guess is Primary Arms started building a platinum line to compete with the viper and razor line.

In re hunting with a .223...ok for varmints but deer or anything bigger I'd stay away from. I'm pretty sure it isn't even legal to hunt deer with .223 in MD. BUT...consider building an SBR in .300 BLK. With supersonic loads, it's basically a 30-30 or a 7.62X39. The only thing you change is the barrel, everything else is the same (same bcg, bolt, magazines, etc). It uses faster burning pistol powders...so you can get away with shorter barrels and not lose much muzzle velocity. Suppressed, with sub sonic loads, it's very very quiet and a LOT of fun. For home defense, using a VMAX or similar bullet with controlled expansion, it'll hit harder and be more effective than a .223.

OK...I'll get off my 300 Blk soapbox

lol - I am in the process of building three SBR rifles. .223, .300 BLK, and 458 SOCOM. The .300 BLK will have a 10.5" barrel. Also have stamps in for 4 more suppressors. The stamps for the .22lr suppressor came back a couple weeks ago.

My main deer hunting rig is a Ruger 77MKII in .300 Win Mag with a Timney trigger and a Burris 3-12x on it. Cannot remember the objective size, but it is in the 50mm range. Oh yeah, I have a Hogue overmolded stock on it with a full length bedding block. I've killed some deer with my dad's .30-06, but I doubt I would be using any other rifle to deer hunt other than my .300 nowadays.

.223 is legal to hunt deer with in Maryland. Some swear by it. Only way I would use it is if I did not have anything else around AND I needed to put food on the table with what I had at hand.

Might get the chance to hunt hogs in Texas, and was thinking the .300 BLK might be the way to go.

Now, I'll have to go and check out the Vortex Razor line.

Stop recommending red dots for the HD gun. I was debating between the CompM4 and the MRO, settled on the MRO, and now you want me to debate it some more. lol Guess I'll have to debate it some more. Would be nice to find a place where I can actually look at these scopes. Wonder if the Cabela's in Gainesville will have scopes that can be handled. After tax season, I am going to take a ride down there with my parents.

Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to get to know me a little bit. Some of the people in this thread have already met me in person and know a thing or two about me. lol

I'll leave you with a pic of a deer I killed in 2002 with the Ruger 77MKII.

 

[fabsroman]

Go ahead and spend $2300 on a VCOG. I did and it was garbage. Doesn't mean I don't love my TA33 ACOG, just means the VCOG is a poor product offering. Not daylight bright, no famous dual illumination, heavy, more expensive that competitors.

Think I have already ruled out the VCOG based upon what you have said. Was hoping that the Primary Arms Platinum line would be the cat's meow at $1,300 and better than the VCOG, but one review comments on focus at 8x being crappy. So, now I am off to read about the Vortex razor line and see what the reticles on it look like. Nothing in life can be easy, can it.

 

[Pinecone]

I like a true 1 - ?x with illumination.

Dual duty. At 1x, it is just like a red dot. But you can dial it up for hunting or longer shots.

I ran a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x for a Carbine course, and it worked well from room clearing to out to 100 yards.

 

[Steviess]

I use aimpoint m2 on my 16 inch. Really like it.

 

[nerfherder]

I like a true 1 - ?x with illumination.

Dual duty. At 1x, it is just like a red dot. But you can dial it up for hunting or longer shots.

I ran a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x for a Carbine course, and it worked well from room clearing to out to 100 yards.

Agreed on the Strike Eagle. It sure isn't top quality glass, but it's very very functional for the price.

 

[sailskidrive]

Agreed on the Strike Eagle. It sure isn't top quality glass, but it's very very functional for the price.

I have a Strike Eagle and am completely underwhelmed by it; lots of fisheye around the edges.

I'm pretty sure the front lens retention ring is glued in... it certainly isn't indexed.

 

[fabsroman]

I have a Strike Eagle and am completely underwhelmed by it; lots of fisheye around the edges.

I'm pretty sure the front lens retention ring is glued in... it certainly isn't indexed.

Yeah, at just north of $300, I don't think it would end up being a top of the line scope. I really like the ACSS reticle on the Primary Arms Platinum scope. Might end up dropping $1,300 on it and giving it a try, or waiting for more reviews to come in regarding it before giving it a try. Looked at Burris, and it does not have anything in a 1-?x that I would even be interested in. Might have to see if Leupold has anything.

 

[sailskidrive]

Yeah, at just north of $300, I don't think it would end up being a top of the line scope. I really like the ACSS reticle on the Primary Arms Platinum scope. Might end up dropping $1,300 on it and giving it a try, or waiting for more reviews to come in regarding it before giving it a try. Looked at Burris, and it does not have anything in a 1-?x that I would even be interested in. Might have to see if Leupold has anything.

The Leupold VX-6 1-6x Multi gun is what I would buy if I could do a rewind... or the Mk4 1.5-5x.

I also have a SWFA HD 1-6x currently riding a SCAR17... it extremely clear and very well made but very heavy and the reticle is really only useable @ 1x or 6x...

 

[1time]

I have a razor hd and the vx6. Both are great companies. The razor is a really great scope that is heavy. The vx6 is a really good scope that is light.

I looked hard at the primary arms platinum. The reviews looked pretty good. A guy named alaskapopo on Enos bought one. He has a really good review. He owns a Swarovski z6i and a razor HD to compare it to. I decided against it because I was building a light weight comp gun. It weighs 6lb 1oz with the scope mounted. Also, I'm not a fan of ffp scopes in this range. Anything that needs hold overs or ranging will be done on the top end of the power scale. May as well have the more consistent reticle in a sfp scope.

 

[Pinecone]

MOPAR - I think you made an excellent argument for getting a $500 red dot over a $100 red dot. I'm just not seeing the $2300 - but I am sure it is the best money can buy. In that I have no doubt.

How much is your life worth?

How much are the lives of your loved ones worth?

OTOH, depending on YOUR situation, $2300 may be totally out of question. But for others, that is pocket change.

To each their own.

But I agree with Mopar, I prefer to buy the best I can afford.

 

[fabsroman]

How much is your life worth?

How much are the lives of your loved ones worth?

OTOH, depending on YOUR situation, $2300 may be totally out of question. But for others, that is pocket change.

To each their own.

But I agree with Mopar, I prefer to buy the best I can afford.

"afford" - that is a pretty hard term to define. There are opportunity costs with everything, and what exactly turns out to be the right decision will not be known for years down the road. If the Apocalypse never comes along, will my wife and children be better off if I spent the money for scopes, guns, etc., on life insurance or an income producing asset?

There is an opportunity cost to everything. Buying $50,000 worth of firearms, optics, and ammo on a credit card is a brilliant move if the world we know ends tomorrow. No worry about paying off the creditors, etc., and you are now the top dog in the neighborhood with all the firearms and ammo.

Does afford mean buying the firearm/optic before buying health insurance, funding a retirement plan, funding a college fund for children, paying off a home mortgage, etc.

"afford" - the definition to everybody is different. I can afford it because I still have credit on my credit cards. I can afford it because I have $2,300 cash on hand. I can afford it because I have $2,300 cash on hand, the kids' college funds have been maxed out for the next 5 years, and my retirement plans have been maxed out, I can afford it because I have $1,000,000 in the bank, I can afford it because I know the zombie apocalypse is coming next week and it is now a necessity and not a luxury.

Sorry, I am working through some CPE on financial planning, retirement planning, estate planning, and alternative investments. "afford" is a topic that is discussed a lot in the courses.

Hell, I want to be able to "afford" things because I have reached financial independence wherein my money works so well for me that it makes me enough money every year that I cannot spend it all. I'm just not there yet.

"afford" - what exactly does it mean? Something different for everybody. I also find that a lot of people just cannot shoot, with whatever optic they have on their firearm. A $2,300 optic on a $3,000 gun does not mean you are hitting the 10 mark with each trigger pull.

 

[Major03]

You bring up a good point...Palma, bench rest and professional shooters 60-80 years ago were making incredible shots with optics we would consider to be junky compared to today's offerings.

In most cases, it's the Indian and not the arrow that makes the bow work. Spending big money on top end equipment if you don't have the skills or you don't need the extra durability / repeat-ability isn't going to auto-magically make you a great shooter. Often, spending the money on ammo and getting range time / professional instruction will yield far better results.

All questions each has to ask for themselves. Afford, value, worth...all subjective to the end user. That's why I usually go back to the primary question of what are people trying to achieve, what kind of shooter are they, and what is their budget to get a sense before making recommendations.