Optics for handguns?

[Allan R]

New member here. Loving all the intelligent content.
I used to an avid gun guy and recently rekindled my love affair. I notice optics are common on handguns. Are these legit or the latest fad?
Especially for self defense use.

Thanks

 

[smokey]

School me on pistol optics:

So, a few months back, a Sig P365X followed me home from AM Shooting in Damascus. I got 3 mags and the Sig holster in the package and I love the gun. It's probably the best pistol I own (not a hard task given that most of my pistols are C&R items from former communist countries). That said, I'm...

www.mdshooters.com

 

[smokey]

Hate my new Red Dot

I have a new Hellcat Pro with a Trijicon RMRcc optic. This is my first handgun with optics and honestly, I'm not a fan. It is not my carry. (My carry is a Beretta PX4 Storm SC). Is there some trick to lining that pistol up so I can see the red dot? I raise the pistol and then struggle to...

www.mdshooters.com

 

[smokey]

Without going through there, the short answer is that red dots on either a pistol or rifle allow you to focus on the threat and not the sights, like with irons. Because there is no cheekweld on handguns, red dots require lots of presentation practice to build both the muscle memory and threat focus to make them quick with handguns. You look at the target, and with enough practice, the dot will simply show up as you punch your gun out to shoot.

If you don't drill thar muscle memory, you can fall back on things like a white stripe along the top of the optic, suppressor height sights, a backplate with some kind of center image, or the acss Vulcan reticle to help align the red dot. The Vulcan reticle is cool, but eats batteries fast due to all that extra needed illumination.

In general, red dots shine at long distance shots, where they can make precision easier when firing slow. Being faster than irons up close requires lots of practice before it happens.

 

[Crosseye Dominant]

I used to actually see both sides of this debate... but my aging eyes have decided for me that optics are not a fad. They are here to stay.

 

[Bountied]

I dabbled and did not like a red dot optic on my pistol. I do like them on rifles. It comes down to personal preference.

 

[Mule]

In my opinion, the answer is "Yes. But,..."

Pistol mounted optics (PMOs) are absolutely worth checking out. But, for a number of reasons, they may or may not be the best option for you.

A bunch of hardware considerations can play a role - reticle type (dot, circle, chevron, dot/chevron within circle, etc.), reticle color (red, green), window size and shape, mount style, iron sight type and witness, etc. Other "software" considerations can play a role, also - how the pistol is presented, head position, eye issues, personal preferences, etc.

It will require an investment. There's the cost of the sight, and there may be others as well. For example, platform-related costs (slide adaptor/mounting plates/slide milling/new slide/new pistol), accessory costs (optic-cut holsters), and training-related costs.

Then, there are also "skills-acquisition" costs, on top of that. You'll need to learn the basics, then drill them until they become automatic. From that point on, you'll want to maintain your perishable skills.

No different than any new venture, and not insurmountable, by any means. But, not just a simple "one-and-done" choice, either.

Good timing for your question, though, as Tom Givens' latest (January 2024) Rangemaster Newsletter has an article with things to consider on whether or not an optic would be a good fit for someone.

https://d74722.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/2024-01_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf

Newsletter - Rangemaster

Rangemaster Newsletter Rangemaster has published a monthly newsletter since the late 1990s. Available newsletter archives are posted here for your convenience. Enjoy! Newsletter Topics Index (2018-2023) 2024 January May September February June October March July November April August December...

rangemaster.com

Aaron Cowan (Sage Dynamics), Scott Jedlinski (Modern Samurai Project), and Gabriel Suarez (Suarez Tactics) are a few instructors who pioneered the use of optics on handguns, and would be good resources for in-person instruction.

Finally, Aaron Cowan published a White Paper on Red Dot Sights (RDS) for handguns, that is an excellent resource:

https://www.sagedynamics.org/_files/ugd/7dc128_6377087e72264cd18dbcb04eea4686ce.pdf

Hope that helps!

 

[frozencesium]

I have a mix...for EDC pistols I tend not to have optics just for concelabilitey. Optics add to size, which I've personally found to be an issue.

Once I find a holster I like that will permit an optic, that fits me, doesn't print like hell, etc...I'll probably switch to my EDC having optics. Knock the Chinese all you want, but the "shake awake" feature is really nice and I run a LOT of Holosun red dots on CQB rifles and pistols. A local gunsmith/SOT 7 that was former SWAT and builds custom rifles for SWAT and other such applications, as well as competition guns runs nothing but Holosun on his stuff...so good enough for him, good enough for me.

Many of my range guns (especially with suppressors) and such I run optics.

 

[Growler215]

How about lasers? I don't see those on handguns much anymore.

I suppose it's a similar issue, i.e. how long does it take you to find the laser dot and get it on target in different lighting conditions. But at least with a laser you'd still have your irons.

 

[possumman]

Just got a Ruger Redydot for Christmas--need to do the TORO slide conversionfor for my G3c--will pick one up next time the slides go on sale and try it out--just holding it in my hand and walking around the dot is plenty bright even in dimly lit room--also the dot is much larger than many

 

[Biggfoot44]

Smokey and Crosseye both do very well at laying out the two main positive aspects- Single focal plane , and adapting to eyesight challenges.

The other sides -

The more accomplished you are conventional sights ( in various aiming strategies) , the steeper the learning curve to get back up to your previous level .

KISS principle. Iron sights never have Dead or corroded batteries , cracked screens, malfunctioning switches . Iron sights occasionally come loose , loose screws on adjustable sights , etc . But far fewer things to go sideways than with mounts, mounting plates, etc .

Bulk . Optics keep getting smaller , but still significantly bulkier than Irons .

The other vision issue . Optics have advantages for poor visual acquity. But they suck for astigmatism.

$$$ Yes , with the growing popularity, prices are competitive. But many / most pistols now come stock usable sights , and if you want something different it modest one time expense .

 

[308Scout]

How about lasers? I don't see those on handguns much anymore.

I suppose it's a similar issue, i.e. how long does it take you to find the laser dot and get it on target in different lighting conditions. But at least with a laser you'd still have your irons.

You can still have irons with a dot. Full co-witness with suppressor height sights is a thing.

 

[gforce]

I like my dot, I kept my irons installed with the dot, can use them if needed.

a benefit I haven’t seen mentioned. It gives you instant feedback on bad trigger pulls. The dot tracks in the direction you jerk the trigger. Useful feature for dry fire.

 

[smokey]

How about lasers? I don't see those on handguns much anymore.

I suppose it's a similar issue, i.e. how long does it take you to find the laser dot and get it on target in different lighting conditions. But at least with a laser you'd still have your irons.

lasers can be cool for odd firing positions. There's some light/laser combos that are OK. They largely went out of fashion though.

With red dots, you keep your irons. You can either have them tall, like my 407c set-up on the left, or minimal, like that 407k set up on the right. I prefer normal stock-height sights and an enclosed emitter optic, like the holosun eps carry. The enclosed optics are durable and can't crud-up like open -emitter designs.

With open emitter designs, you've got a single pane of glass and a light source projecting a reflection on to the glass from down in the optic body. This sucks for 2 reasons...
1) it's a pain for maintenance- As you get dust and lint in it, you need to reach in to the back face of the glass to wipe it and will probably need something like a q-tip to clean the emitter itself.

2) reliability- rain/dirt/blood can get down and block the emitter, leaving you with just a panel of glass that now may be blocked or not have a dot on it. You have to quickly blow it out or rely on backplate shooting/backup irons depending on how boogers it gets.

In contrast, enclosed emitter designs protect the emitter by completely enclosing it between two panes of glass, like on most rifle red dots. Going back to the above complaints...
1) maintenance-simply wipe the front and back glass with your shirt or a clean cloth from time to time
2) reliability- if blood/mud/water gets on it, just quickly wipe it with your shirt/thumb and get back to shooting.

The eps carry also has noticeably better glass than the 407k or 407c. It has less fisheye distortion and is just as clear, despite having two panes instead of one. Below you can see the open emotter 407k on the fde slide and the enclosed eps carry on the black slode.

Annnnnd since it hasn't been mentioned, one added benefit of an optic is one-handed manipulations. They make it extremely easy to rack the slide off of damned near anything with one hand.

 

[FRISteve]

How about lasers? I don't see those on handguns much anymore.

I suppose it's a similar issue, i.e. how long does it take you to find the laser dot and get it on target in different lighting conditions. But at least with a laser you'd still have your irons.

Lasers are a no go on defensive pistols in my opinion, except in specific use case scenarios. You spend more time looking for the dot than you do shooting. We did a great 2 year study on lasers versus not in defensive pistols and, tragically, before we published it, my co-author had a fatal heart attack and his sister, when cleaning out his house, threw out all our research.

I haven’t had the heart to redo it, but here’s the salient points - with the laser, at defensive distances, you will be slightly more accurate but will take significantly longer to get shots on target.

 

[Hickory76]

View attachment 446976
View attachment 446979
lasers can be cool for odd firing positions. There's some light/laser combos that are OK. They largely went out of fashion though.

With red dots, you keep your irons. You can either have them tall, like my 407c set-up on the left, or minimal, like that 407k set up on the right. I prefer normal stock-height sights and an enclosed emitter optic, like the holosun eps carry. The enclosed optics are durable and can't crud-up like open -emitter designs.

With open emitter designs, you've got a single pane of glass and a light source projecting a reflection on to the glass from down in the optic body. This sucks for 2 reasons...
1) it's a pain for maintenance- As you get dust and lint in it, you need to reach in to the back face of the glass to wipe it and will probably need something like a q-tip to clean the emitter itself.

2) reliability- rain/dirt/blood can get down and block the emitter, leaving you with just a panel of glass that now may be blocked or not have a dot on it. You have to quickly blow it out or rely on backplate shooting/backup irons depending on how boogers it gets.

In contrast, enclosed emitter designs protect the emitter by completely enclosing it between two panes of glass, like on most rifle red dots. Going back to the above complaints...
1) maintenance-simply wipe the front and back glass with your shirt or a clean cloth from time to time
2) reliability- if blood/mud/water gets on it, just quickly wipe it with your shirt/thumb and get back to shooting.

The eps carry also has noticeably better glass than the 407k or 407c. It has less fisheye distortion and is just as clear, despite having two panes instead of one. Below you can see the open emotter 407k on the fde slide and the enclosed eps carry on the black slode. View attachment 446977
View attachment 446978


Annnnnd since it hasn't been mentioned, one added benefit of an optic is one-handed manipulations. They make it extremely easy to rack the slide off of damned near anything with one hand.

Have you had any issues with the shake-awake feature not "awakening" on the Holosun EPS Carry? I saw a video from Nightwood Guns on YouTube discussing this...curious to hear about any known reliability issues - thanks!

 

[smokey]

Have you had any issues with the shake-awake feature not "awakening" on the Holosun EPS Carry? I saw a video from Nightwood Guns on YouTube discussing this...curious to hear about any known reliability issues - thanks!

Nope. All my holosuns, whether handgun or rifle, have reliably come on when I pick then up.

 

[Growler215]

Lasers are a no go on defensive pistols in my opinion, except in specific use case scenarios. You spend more time looking for the dot than you do shooting. We did a great 2 year study on lasers versus not in defensive pistols and, tragically, before we published it, my co-author had a fatal heart attack and his sister, when cleaning out his house, threw out all our research.

I haven’t had the heart to redo it, but here’s the salient points - with the laser, at defensive distances, you will be slightly more accurate but will take significantly longer to get shots on target.

I'm guessing nightime/wearing NV is one of the specific cases for which lasers are useful. But if I've got time to put on NV I've probably got time to pick up a rifle, too.

 

[gforce]

Have you had any issues with the shake-awake feature not "awakening" on the Holosun EPS Carry? I saw a video from Nightwood Guns on YouTube discussing this...curious to hear about any known reliability issues - thanks!

I have a full size EPS, never been a problem on mine either. The motion sensor is incredibly sensitive. I imagine it stays on the whole time it’s being worn. Haven’t been able to draw it before the dot comes online after it’s been sitting awhile. Don’t reckon I’ll ever be faster than it is.

 

[Hickory76]

I have a full size EPS, never been a problem on mine either. The motion sensor is incredibly sensitive. I imagine it stays on the whole time it’s being worn. Haven’t been able to draw it before the dot comes online after it’s been sitting awhile. Don’t reckon I’ll ever be faster than it is.

That's great to hear, thanks!