Open sight accuracy expectations

[lazarus]

I am looking for a little reassurance, or maybe a kick in the pants. I just hit the range for the second time. New sight for my CVA wolf as I didn't like the patridge style fiber optic open sights. I kept the front bead/blade sight and replaced the rear with a fiber ghost ring. I like it a lot better. I was at Cresaps just shooting the 50yd target. Pouring sweat (yesterday). It was actually so bad when I was leaning over the muzzle cleaning it...I had just put a dry swab through and a river of sweat poured off my nose and down the barrel. A little reswabbing before pouring the powder down

Anyway, had to sight in as well, but the first 3 were all on the paper. Target swap. I then put 13 more down range before the next swap. A few sight adjustments and in the middle I swapped .45 250 XTP to try 5 of .44 240 XTP that I had with me (what I want to switch to, but I've got half a box of .45 250 still). Anyway, hard to see all of the hits because the range was pretty full and the muzzleloader benches got the really crappy target scopes. So I was using my 10x25 binocs. It looked like the first 3 were about a 3" group, switched rounds and the next 5 were mostly higher (no surprise) and about a 3-4" group with a couple of sight adjustments and then back to the .45 250 and those of course were a bit off, but those 5 I think we're around a 3-4" group.

Took the target down (note, I couldn't see on the paper were a few of the hits were, so the grouping is a bit of a guess for when each round went through) and prior I thought I might have had a few fly aways, but every round hit the paper and except for one odd low round, the other 13 were in a 6" group even though I was playing with the sight and switching bullets in there. I think each individual group with the 250gr, then 240gr and back to 250gr were more like 3-4" groups. I actually put a couple of rounds through the same hole about .25" on level but to the right of the bullseye (according to the guy next to me who had a got view through his scope, it was the very first two rounds).

Then switched targets and with the rifle still very hot I put 3 in to it before I had to leave. Left the paper, but it looked like maybe a 4" or 5" group from what I could see.

So, for those who have done a lot of open sight shooting, especially with MLs as well as shooting sabots with a hot gun, is this at all decent? The guy shooting a pair of MLs (scoped) next time me said it was pretty good and my neighbor who hunts mostly ML and open sights thinks that is "good enough. Sounds like you are ready to hunt".

Thoughts? How much is possibly a hot gun messing with accuracy some? Is this even remotely good? Are 3-4" groups at 50yds about the best an average experienced marksman could expect with open sights (and if I want much better, I should really just get a scope)? I doubt this season I'll really be attempting any shots over about 60-70yds and I am hoping to get back to the range at LEAST 2 if not 3-4 more times before opening day. I'd prefer to stay with open sights as I do really enjoy the new one (future guns, yeah I'll probably get a scope).

 

[K31]

Personally I detest fiber sights. They may let you see your sight in dim light but they just look like huge blobs on a target. I'd say you did as well as you can with them IMO.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Never shot sabots...but at the World Muzzle-Loading Championships, they'll put 13 shots into a 3-inch group with a rifle-musket using open sights. Offhand.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Presuming that : 1. You have reasonably good eye sight 2. Reasonably decent lighting. ; the the open sights are not a limiting factor. While not a ML per se , with an A2 configuration AR I can do 1in at 100yd, with decent lighting.

Under certain angles of direct sunlight fiber optic can flare , and induce some error. But then so can shiney brass or gold beads. Or red ramps.

Everything has some degree of tradeoffs , but considering hunting is often in the woods , and often at dawn or dusk , high visability sights are usually considered desirable for deer hunting and similar . Varmits in an opaen field are more akin to pure target shooting and smaller nonreflective sights are favored.

 

[lazarus]

So maybe not terrible marksmanship, but it could probably use work and...maybe heat was a factor?

I saw a suggestion for a limbsaver recoil pad to help with my bruised should the last time. I put 48 through the gun in 2hrs and my shoulder was really sore and bruised for a week after. This time it is just mildly sore next day with no evident bruising with 19 rounds. I was looking at the slip fit limbsavers...any thoughts? Or maybe the strap on shooting pad/vest? Hunting shouldn't matter as a round doesn't bother me, but practicing at the range adds up. I have to measure the butt, but I was thinking the small/medium air recoil pad as it is only 1/2" LOP. Hoping that help a bit and not change cheek weld, etc. much. Also slip on is easier for me just to put on the rifle and forget. Best pad is something I'd have to remember every time.

 

[friendlyhippo]

My TC Omega, when I used open sights, was typically around 3-4 inches at 100 with 250-grain Hornady SST sabots and loose powder.

Now that it's scoped, I do the same size groups but at 200.

 

[Melnic]

Lazarus, were you shooting offhand or supported somehow?
are you testing the gun's accuracy or yours?

I have a CVA Wolf. I started with White Hot pellets and I use 250gr plastic tip Traditions or TC Sabots (seem to work the same).
Honestly, not much difference in point of impact at 50 yards with 50gr (one pellet) vs 100gr (2 pellets).
Mine is scoped and with white hots or BH209 which I use now, they touch holes at 50 yards.
My limited hunting experience with sights are:
Scoped set to 3X is great cause you gather more light and can acquire target really fast. Good in low light.
Rear Peep: Large aperture needed if you are in low light because the rear peep reduces light gathering below a stock sight. If you have a large aperture, its not a problem centering the front sight for hunting. I have a the large aperture for hunting with my Lyman plains rifle, but smaller for target shooting.
Lyman offhand at 50 yards, I'll get about 3-5" group. Benched 1-3" group
Practice the way you will hunt, if its offhand, practice offhand cause POI may change. If you want to practice at 50 yards,maybe start with front hand supported, move to elbow, then go offhand. Maybe try lower charge just to see the difference.

 

[lazarus]

This was only front supported by sand bags. I am testing both my accuracy and the rifles. A bit more mine than the rifles at this point. Eventually when I am more comfortable with shooting form and when it is cooler, I need to try working up loads to see what it likes the best. Right now since I am focusing more on my technique and accuracy, I am sticking to straight 100gr pyrodex with the 250gr .45 XTP till I run out and then the .44 240gr.

Well that and I was adjusting the sight. It is a ghost ring, not a traditional aperture sight.

 

[TheRealJimDavis]

Two things:
1.) are you normally better than that with irons? Cause if you never shot irons the issue is the shooter. If you shoot them all the time, and are proficient, then start blaming the gun.

2.) I have a TC Triumph, load development was a real hassle. I tried all sorts of stuff. In the end "magnum" charges were too much for her. She opened way up. My happy place ended up being significantly less.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Accuracy no matter what you shoot depends on many things. The inherent accuracy of the gun, the accuracy of the load, the specific sights, the eyesight of the shooter, the hold, and the shooters ability. Each factor is made up of many sub factors and adds to the overall accuracy. The distance simply allows the accuracy factors to multiply but a one minute of angle shooting platform has the same accuracy even though the groups get bigger the farther distance you go.

You need to establish the baseline accuracy of each of the variables to know how much each is contributing. Start with the basic accuracy of the gun shot from sand bags and get another shooter to help to make sure you both get similar accuracy results to insure it is not shooter related. That will establish a base to work from although you may find later when testing different loads the overall accuracy may be better with a different load. Next establish just how good a shooter you really are. Don't try to do that with a new to you gun but use one you already know the accuracy of. If you don't have something suitable borrow one, preferably a target type .22 rim fire or a air rifle used for position shooting to eliminate the recoil issues. Take that rifle and at a standard target at the standard distance shoot a normal course of fire in the approved positions and see how well you do compared to other shooters, there are many posted match results that show the scores of all shooters so you can see where you would have placed.

Once you know how well your gun can shoot without you and how well you can shoot without that rifle you can put the two together and start working on the other variables.

To give you an Idea of accuracy I coach a junior air rifle club that shoots Three Position (prone, kneeling and standing) Air Rifle at 10 meters (32 feet 7 3/4 inches) with aperture sights. At that distance the target 10 ring is the size of a period at the end of a sentence. The black "bulls eye" which includes scoring rings from 4 to 10 measures 1 3/16" in diameter. The best junior shooter nationally recently shot a perfect 600, all shots hitting the 10 ring (.). Juniors with some experience should be shooting ten bull targets in the 70 to 90's range depending on position.

 

[Melnic]

Depending on the powder and sabot, a cold bore shot can change POI significantly. Maybe not so much at 50 yards, but still it can change. After you adjust sights, try one time cleaning it, then letting it set 30 mins in the shade. When I was using white hots or Pyrodex, it moved some (4"-6" higher when cold @ 100 yards), but BH209, it did not move at all.

 

[lazarus]

I am hearing lots of arguments on buying another gun. My wife will not like that...

I think I at least need to get an air rifle. As for shooting, well my two visits account for probably 90% of the bullets I've ever shot in my life. Also excellent suggestion on patterning a cold rifle. Sounds like the perfect thing to do with my neighbor. He is going to bring a few of his guns when we go to the range in a few weeks. Practice on mine a bit, then let is sit once I am sure the sight is in. Switch to the other rifles. Then every half hour shot a round out of the "cold" ML to get a three shit pattern over 90 minutes and then adjust sight.

Or is it more that I'll be able to tell with a cold rifle if it is shooting high and need to adjust down slightly to shoot on cold?

 

[Blacksmith101]

Lazarus
Since you are very new to shooting you would benefit greatly from some formal instruction. An Appleseed event would teach you a lot in a short time:
http://appleseedinfo.org/

Maryland Appleseed events:
http://appleseedinfo.org/search-states-display.php?qstate=MD&statename=Maryland

The bench mark for firearms training is of course the NRA courses, link for finding classes:
http://www.nrainstructors.org/Search.aspx

NRA course descriptions:
http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx

Get your wife involved and you will have to buy her guns. Women make very good shooters because they are easier to train, they listen men don't because they think they know it all.

 

[outrider58]

This was only front supported by sand bags. I am testing both my accuracy and the rifles. A bit more mine than the rifles at this point. Eventually when I am more comfortable with shooting form and when it is cooler, I need to try working up loads to see what it likes the best. Right now since I am focusing more on my technique and accuracy, I am sticking to straight 100gr pyrodex with the 250gr .45 XTP till I run out and then the .44 240gr.

Well that and I was adjusting the sight. It is a ghost ring, not a traditional aperture sight.

Just curious, you said front supported on sandbags. Is the barrel on the sandbag or the fore end? You don't want the barrel resting on anything, ever. I'd like to see you get that whole rifle supported until you develop an accurate round. Then work on your technique. In that process, I recommend not adjusting your sight until you can achieve consistent groups of maybe 2'' @ 50 yds. Get the gun running right before you worry about bulls eyes.

 

[lazarus]

Just the Fore end. The barrel was only touching air. I tried the rear supported by bags too a couple of times, but the bags were overfilled so I had a really hard time adjusting them to actually be on target, less bullseye. Though I guess thinking about it, to at least test the rifle accuracy, a bullseye is not needed. Just a consistent point of aim and a 3 shot group.

Happ-bakers sand bags were much better.

 

[lazarus]

Also on the Appleseed classes, that looks awesome, but will have to wait till probably the spring. No .22 to take with me and I'd suspect my ML would be a bit slow to load for the class. I talked over an air rifle with my wife and her opinion is still wait till after hunting season to buy anything else. Sigh. I explained why and it is cutting no mustard. She still seems open once the season is over investing in both the sport and the hobby.

As a "early muzzleloader season is now over with" purchase, other than an air rifle, what should I get next? .22? I was looking at a savage 93F in .22wmr. Target, ground hogs and rabbits was my thought (maybe turkey if I ever get out west for early turkey season).