Open carry of non-firearm weapon in Baltimore City

[Roneut]

Getting back on topic, I personally open carried a weapon all over downtown Baltimore City (Inner harbor, fells point, museums) just this past 4th of July. Y'all wanna see what I was packin'?

Here you go. The one on the right, though it was sporting a fresh coat of varnish:

I am neither disabled nor particularly old. Doesn't matter, ADA and MPA 1974 says I can carry these and there's not a darn thing anyone anywhere can do about it. They're not even legally able to ask me what my disability is, and I have a great deal of confidence in the protection of the ADA after watching my mother (a disability advocate) destroy people in court since the early 90s. These days I imagine LEOs are hyper-aware it is not cool to pick on the guy with the cane because you "don't think he's looks disabled to you."

And frankly on the streets, I think 3 feet of hornbeam that's already in your hand is better then 8 inches of steel in your pocket. I had a suspicious seedy fellow start following me on an empty side-street on Monday. I gave him a quick look, lifted my stick up onto my shoulder, and kept walking. He turned around and left, likely in search of easier prey.

 

[cb51]

Getting back on topic, I personally open carried a weapon all over downtown Baltimore City (Inner harbor, fells point, museums) just this past 4th of July. Y'all wanna see what I was packin'?

Here you go. The one on the right, though it was sporting a fresh coat of varnish:

I am neither disabled nor particularly old. Doesn't matter, ADA and MPA 1974 says I can carry these and there's not a darn thing anyone anywhere can do about it. They're not even legally able to ask me what my disability is, and I have a great deal of confidence in the protection of the ADA after watching my mother (a disability advocate) destroy people in court since the early 90s. These days I imagine LEOs are hyper-aware it is not cool to pick on the guy with the cane because you "don't think he's looks disabled to you."

And frankly on the streets, I think 3 feet of hornbeam that's already in your hand is better then 8 inches of steel in your pocket. I had a suspicious seedy fellow start following me on an empty side-street on Monday. I gave him a quick look, lifted my stick up onto my shoulder, and kept walking. He turned around and left, likely in search of easier prey.

Friggin aye!

I feel pretty safe from the run of the mill low life with three feet of blackthorn or hornbeam in my hand. I think it's made a difference a couple of times while the better half and I were walking arund the inner harbor or down in Washington D.C. There's no knife you can carry in a pocket that equals a nice stick/cane. Plus the stick can go right onto an airplane with you. Try that with a knife or pepper spray.

 

[cb51]

great idea with the walking stick!! However, they will probably not be alowed on planes much longer...

Actually, they will.

No airline want to be the first one to become the target of the huge law suit over the Americans With Disabilities Act. The Civil Liberties Union will get in on the act, and in the end the airline dumb enough to take that course will loose millions. It's too much revenue at stake, and they have corporate lawyers who will tell them not to go down that road.

If you inform then you have a physical condition and need a cane, they are not allowed by law to ask. If they insist you can't carry a cane, then they have to supply you with a wheel chair and assistance. Imagine what a can of worms that will open up for operating cost and time.

 

[cb51]

glistam, thats a great piece of hornbeam! great charater

Where did you cut that one at?

 

[Roneut]

Actually, they will.

No airline want to be the first one to become the target of the huge law suit over the Americans With Disabilities Act. The Civil Liberties Union will get in on the act, and in the end the airline dumb enough to take that course will loose millions. It's too much revenue at stake, and they have corporate lawyers who will tell them not to go down that road.

If you inform then you have a physical condition and need a cane, they are not allowed by law to ask. If they insist you can't carry a cane, then they have to supply you with a wheel chair and assistance. Imagine what a can of worms that will open up for operating cost and time.

I know several legal professionals who would be out for blood, pro bono, if so much as a TSA guard tried to bar someone with a cane. Besides, canes have never made the news as a criminal's weapon of choice nor is anyone going to hijack a plane with one.

glistam, thats a great piece of hornbeam! great charater

Where did you cut that one at?

Actually both are hornbeam, just the one on the left was striped down to the base wood, while the right one still has under-bark on. Both were steam-box bent into shape, though the left side one un-bent slightly and it the angle is uncomfortable to hold. I'll have another go at that style once I find a new piece. Be warned, this is one stubborn wood.

I got them at Lake Needwood. They tend to grow near water, especially old lakes and streams (non-artificial ones), but you do find them pretty far uphill as long as you have a large enough body of water nearby.

If you go searching on official park property, be sure you either only take dead branches or get permission from the M-NCPPC arborist.

 

[chad2]

correct me if im wrong but i am pretty sure it is legal to conceal carry nonlethal selfdefense weapons like pepper spary or mace or a taser gun like the c2 it is easy to conceal it might be a little pricey but if you do think that one of these crazy cats will do something i would not put a price on your life it shoots up to 15 feet, comes with a laser and light.

http://www.amazon.com/Taser-Without...GT8Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310001910&sr=8-1

 

[pop-gunner]

correct me if im wrong but i am pretty sure it is legal to conceal carry nonlethal selfdefense weapons like pepper spary or mace or a taser gun like the c2 it is easy to conceal it might be a little pricey but if you do think that one of these crazy cats will do something i would not put a price on your life it shoots up to 15 feet, comes with a laser and light.

http://www.amazon.com/Taser-Without...GT8Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310001910&sr=8-1

That all depends on why you are carrying it.
You may not carry most things with the intent of doing harm to someone else.
Self defense is an example of doing harm.
If I carry a knife (to open boxes) or a cane (to help me walk) I am not carrying them with intent of doing harm. They are tools that serve a purpose. Yes they may be used as self defense weapons but they do serve another purpose and are not carried as weapons.

Why would you carry a Taser if not for self defense (therefore with the intent to do harm)?

 

[Roneut]

That all depends on why you are carrying it.
You may not carry most things with the intent of doing harm to someone else.
Self defense is an example of doing harm.
If I carry a knife (to open boxes) or a cane (to help me walk) I am not carrying them with intent of doing harm. They are tools that serve a purpose. Yes they may be used as self defense weapons but they do serve another purpose and are not carried as weapons.

Why would you carry a Taser if not for self defense (therefore with the intent to do harm)?

That not necessarily how it works. Isolated ignorance of a LEO here and there aside, the law in practice by the courts it pretty clear. All folding knives are legal to carry concealed, no matter what, no exceptions. I have 3+ major cases that were published opinions in the appeals courts where a folding knife was used as a murder weapon and the courts explicitly dismissed weapon charges due to the penknife exception.

Any weapon not named explicitly in the statute requires evidence of unlawful intent, though it is generally the courts, not the officer, that are burdened with deciding that matter (so you can still get arrested easily). This doctrine is similar to the line from CR 4-101:

an individual who carries the weapon as a reasonable precaution against apprehended danger, subject to the right of the court in an action arising under this section to judge the reasonableness of the carrying of the weapon, and the proper occasion for carrying it, under the evidence in the case.

I know of several cases where a person was carrying a concealed fixed blade, but due to their otherwise lawful conduct when it was discovered (during a traffic stop, and defendant volunteered that he was carrying) the charges were dismissed almost immediately by the judge as soon as the paper crossed his desk. I myself have been very explicit with LEOs (who were talking to me in a casual situation) that I was carrying a concealed baton, and they made no effort to detain me.

In the case of pepper spray in particular, there is a bit of law most of you probably don't know about. The MD Court Charging Language document provides a clear-cut exception:

Carrying or wearing chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device concealed is not made illegal by this section if the defendant is an adult. Carrying such a device openly with intent to injure is charged under CR 4-101.

The only case I have ever seen where pepper spray was ruled as a dangerous weapon was a robbery case where a guy sprayed a mailman to steal his social security checks. And in that case he was not charged under 4-101, but rather with 3-403 "Robbery with dangerous weapon" (due to 4-101 being a "lesser included offense")

Taser's have more explicit regulation under CR 4-109 rather than 4-101. This is a new law and most people don't know about it. This law only prohibits possession by a person under 18 or someone with prior convictions for violent or drug-trafficking crimes. It does not restrict carry by those who are qualified. It also regulates the sale of tasers in that it requires the seller to provide instructions, do background checks on buyers, keep records of buyer's personal information, and provide unrestricted access to this information to law enforcement. Eeek! A "fun fact" about this law is that it was passed after a cop accidentally killed a deaf man with a taser. How crazy is that? A cop's negligence gets a law passed that restricts everyone else except cops? Anyway, no offense to cops, I blame the moron legislators. I also personally do not like tasers as defensive weapons. $300+ for a one-shot weapon that has miles of red tape around activating and using it. I'll take the spray, cane and knife, thanks.

 

[chad2]

That all depends on why you are carrying it.
You may not carry most things with the intent of doing harm to someone else.
Self defense is an example of doing harm.
If I carry a knife (to open boxes) or a cane (to help me walk) I am not carrying them with intent of doing harm. They are tools that serve a purpose. Yes they may be used as self defense weapons but they do serve another purpose and are not carried as weapons.

Why would you carry a Taser if not for self defense (therefore with the intent to do harm)?

so i was wrong lol

 

[Baccusboy]

Personally, if I were in that situation I would carry a full sized baseball bat to work everyday. An asp has to be deployed and has limited reach as does a knife.

And hang a glove off of the end of it just to make it look more legit.

 

[chad2]

That all depends on why you are carrying it.
You may not carry most things with the intent of doing harm to someone else.
Self defense is an example of doing harm.
If I carry a knife (to open boxes) or a cane (to help me walk) I am not carrying them with intent of doing harm. They are tools that serve a purpose. Yes they may be used as self defense weapons but they do serve another purpose and are not carried as weapons.

Why would you carry a Taser if not for self defense (therefore with the intent to do harm)?

that is the hole point of carrying a taser is because it doesnt harm you

 

[aray]

Taser's have more explicit regulation under CR 4-109 rather than 4-101. This is a new law and most people don't know about it. This law only prohibits possession by a person under 18 or someone with prior convictions for violent or drug-trafficking crimes. It does not restrict carry by those who are qualified.

True but that's state law. Local jurisdictions can and occasionally do further restrict carry. By county law tasers are illegal in Anne Arundel County for example:

http://www.aacounty.org/CountyCode/index.cfm

§ 9-1-603. Electronic weapons – prohibited acts.
(a) Definition. In this section, "electronic weapon" means a "stun gun" or any similar device by whatever name that is designed as a weapon capable of injuring an individual by the discharge of electrical current.

(b) Scope. This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer acting within the scope of the officer's official duties.

(c) Prohibitions. A person may not sell, give away, lend, rent, or transfer an electronic weapon in the County. A person may not possess or discharge an electronic weapon in the County.

(d) Sanctions for violation. A person violating any provision of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction is subject to a fine not exceeding $1,000 or imprisonment not exceeding six months or both.

(1985 Code, Art. 11, § 4-102.1) (Bill No. 49-85; Bill No. 20-06)

 

[WeaponsCollector]

I know of two people who were arrested for carrying folding pocket knives in Charles and Calvert Counties.
I am proud to say I always carry at least two knives no matter where I go, knife and gun bans are against everything America stands for.

 

[cb51]

I know of two people who were arrested for carrying folding pocket knives in Charles and Calvert Counties.
I am proud to say I always carry at least two knives no matter where I go, knife and gun bans are against everything America stands for.

Given Maryland's weird but liberal law on folding "pen" knives, I'd be curious to know why they were arrested, and what kind of knives were they carrying?

Do you know any of the particulars?

 

[WeaponsCollector]

Given Maryland's weird but liberal law on folding "pen" knives, I'd be curious to know why they were arrested, and what kind of knives were they carrying?

Do you know any of the particulars?

One guy had an "assisted opening" knife in Waldorf and he was arrested for it and ended up being fined for carrying it.
The other was a woman who got pulled over in Calvert Co. and the officer found a folding knife in her car and charged her for it.
That's all I know.

 

[cb51]

One guy had an "assisted opening" knife in Waldorf and he was arrested for it and ended up being fined for carrying it.
The other was a woman who got pulled over in Calvert Co. and the officer found a folding knife in her car and charged her for it.
That's all I know.

Naaa! I don't buy it.

There's another side of the story that they ain't telling. You don't get arrested for carrying a legal knife.

 

[Roneut]

Naaa! I don't buy it.

There's another side of the story that they ain't telling. You don't get arrested for carrying a legal knife.

I agree. Last cop I heard of that did that for real lost his badge.

 

[edhallor]

Naaa! I don't buy it.

There's another side of the story that they ain't telling. You don't get arrested for carrying a legal knife.

Although some Jurisdictions do have some "Odd Laws" as a general rule a Knife is a Tool not a Weapon, same applies for Walking Sticks, Cains, Screw Drivers and any array of Tool, Tools are just that "Tools" with some notable exceptions. Switch Blades "Pegged" or "Dirk" (Knives that have been altered so that the Tip protrudes just above the Case so that when swiped against your jacket or Pants will catch on the tip and snap open simiar to a Switch Blade)

Other circumstance can get you in trouble with "Tools" most notable carrying Pliers, Hammer, Screw Driver in a high Car Theft/ Burglary area at AM, 16 years old, don't work, etc. Dependant on other factors (Criminal History) may well have a person arrested for Rogue and Vagabond etc.

As Retired Law Enforcement I carry a Hand Gun and my Family Members carry "Tools" that could in the event of necessity be used for self Defense.

The carry of an "Unaltered" Tool, Knife (within reasonable limits) - whats reasonable for one person may not be reasonable for another. Walking Sticks, Cains should not even draw a second glance from a Police Officer. Exceptions to everything, if you were walking up to greet the President with a 5' Walking Stick you may set off a Red Light.

And again although these are tools you must remember their status can change upon your actions. Raise that Cain above your head and take a swing at someones head (deserve it or not) and you now possibly have possession of a Deadly Weapon along with a possible 1st degree Assault. That being an assault that could have caused a protracted injury to another person.

Many, many times I see well meaning street Connor Lawyers wanting to sell self-defense DVD's repeat "You have a "RIGHT" to defend yourself. I would advise everyone that after my almost 40 years in Law Enforcement I have never read anything in Law giving you any "RIGHT" and "Legal Protection" to retaliate physically or Civilly any précised attack on your or another persons, person or property.

Each case is going to be different, and none two judged the same.

As far as every Officer in America applying the same rules for determining what is and what is not a Deadly Weapon, Pipe Dream, not going to happen, way too many variables for that to happen.

The Rules in Juno, Alaska are not going to be the same as 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., and just maybe thats the way it should be.

Ed

 

[cb51]

I think I can agree with the gist of what I think you're saying, Ed. But the simple fact is, to get arrested in the state of Maryland, you have to be doing something wrong to start with. I've been a life long resident of this state, born and bred, but I've never known anyone that was just going down the road to be stopped and searched by the police. Let alone arrested for something that is legal to carry. I'm no angel, and I've been stopped for speeding, by both the Montgomery County and state boys. I was driving with a lead foot and deserved the ticket I got. But I was never searched, and they never asked me if I had any weapons on my. I always have a medium size lock blade on me, and sometimes a small sheath knife like a Buck woodsman on my hip. Never a problem.

I can only think that the guy arrested for the assisted opening was somehow popping up on the radar by brandishing or waving it around in public, and the young lady in the car was doing something that was a big no-no, and got busted for it. She may have been on probation or parole, and not having a knife or other weapon may have been part of the conditions.

But all that aside, nobody in Maryland, gets busted for having a folding knife, unless it is a switchblade, or they are misusing it in public. If they have, then the police officer who did it, and the department he is on, will be making a huge contribution to the arrestee's retirement fund.

Carl.

 

[edhallor]

I think I can agree with the gist of what I think you're saying, Ed. But the simple fact is, to get arrested in the state of Maryland, you have to be doing something wrong to start with. I've been a life long resident of this state, born and bred, but I've never known anyone that was just going down the road to be stopped and searched by the police. Let alone arrested for something that is legal to carry. I'm no angel, and I've been stopped for speeding, by both the Montgomery County and state boys. I was driving with a lead foot and deserved the ticket I got. But I was never searched, and they never asked me if I had any weapons on my. I always have a medium size lock blade on me, and sometimes a small sheath knife like a Buck woodsman on my hip. Never a problem.

I can only think that the guy arrested for the assisted opening was somehow popping up on the radar by brandishing or waving it around in public, and the young lady in the car was doing something that was a big no-no, and got busted for it. She may have been on probation or parole, and not having a knife or other weapon may have been part of the conditions.

But all that aside, nobody in Maryland, gets busted for having a folding knife, unless it is a switchblade, or they are misusing it in public. If they have, then the police officer who did it, and the department he is on, will be making a huge contribution to the arrestee's retirement fund.

Carl.

Agree,
In my many years I have seen very few cases of Law Abiding persons arrested simply for caring items like knives, although there have been a few that were arguable.

I believe one of the biggest mistakes revolves around making unnecessary statements to LEO or confrontational persons that remove the object from tool to Weapon. IE, the statement "That Tire Iron I carry on the front seat of my car will put an end to an argument real quick"

The question of carry for self defense is certainly one with no quick answers. Considering civil and criminal liability, to submit, defend and to what degree to defend are no easy questions with no easy answers.

A topic that should also be under discussion, and perhaps has, is to what degree does my Home Owners insurance protect me if I should take a defensive action within, or outside of my Home?

Ed