NY's New Training Requirements

[Brute]

Sounds familiar in a lot of ways, the written test and two hours on the range seem fun.

https://www.criminaljustice.ny.gov/FINAL NYSP-DCJS Minimum Standards for Firearm Safety Training 8-23-22.pdf

 

[Blaster229]

I don't think many want to download a PDF.
Can you copy and paste some of the highlights?

 

[Brute]

I don't think many want to download a PDF.
Can you copy and paste some of the highlights?

Yessir. Edit incoming.

 

[Blaster229]

Yessir. Edit incoming.

Awesome sauce! Thanks.

 

[clandestine]

The live fire qual is pretty funny.

 

[lazarus]

The live fire qual is pretty funny.

That's going to be HARD to do. Draw from concealment with an empty firearm...

Now instructors working through a range will probably not have as hard a time, but I am not aware of any public ranges that allow drawing from a holster or drawing from concealment. Empty gun or not. That's Maryland, not NY, but I suspect NY isn't going to be a whole lot better about that.

That is supposed to be done at the end of the 2hrs of instruction on the range, so unless an instructor is fudging it and had student demonstrate some of that stuff during classroom time and dummy guns...

Also how's the training going to pan out with the upcoming temporary restraining order on sensitive places? NY says you must instruct students on the new sensitive places (everywhere. Don't bother getting this permit), and yet I suspect in the next couple of days NY is going to be restrained from enforcing the sensitive places restrictions.

PS Also, IMHO if you can't hit 5/5 at 4yds, you SHOULD be failed. Missing one at 4 yards under range conditions on a B27 to me is a negligent discharge.

 

[clandestine]

That's going to be HARD to do. Draw from concealment with an empty firearm...

Now instructors working through a range will probably not have as hard a time, but I am not aware of any public ranges that allow drawing from a holster or drawing from concealment. Empty gun or not. That's Maryland, not NY, but I suspect NY isn't going to be a whole lot better about that.

That is supposed to be done at the end of the 2hrs of instruction on the range, so unless an instructor is fudging it and had student demonstrate some of that stuff during classroom time and dummy guns...

Also how's the training going to pan out with the upcoming temporary restraining order on sensitive places? NY says you must instruct students on the new sensitive places (everywhere. Don't bother getting this permit), and yet I suspect in the next couple of days NY is going to be restrained from enforcing the sensitive places restrictions.

PS Also, IMHO if you can't hit 5/5 at 4yds, you SHOULD be failed. Missing one at 4 yards under range conditions on a B27 to me is a negligent discharge.

I disagree completely with your final thought.

There should be no qual.

Disabled people may not be able to pull off the qual.

The class and the qual is discrimination.

 

[Mark75H]

ADA for the win

 

[lazarus]

I disagree completely with your final thought.

There should be no qual.

Disabled people may not be able to pull off the qual.

The class and the qual is discrimination.

I agree that there should not be a qualification. I am just relaying that in my opinion, if you cannot hit a person sized target at 4yds in a non-stressful situation then your shooting is negligent. I agree that a disabled person might not be able to pull off what NY is requiring. I also don't believe you need to be able to do everything in that qualification to defend yourself without putting others at risk.

However, disabled or not, I also do believe that if you are missing at 4yds against a target about the size of a person's torso and head under a non-stressful, non-rushed situation, that is a negligent shot and endangers others. You should not be taking shots that are likely endangering others as much or more than protecting yourself.

But I also believe it should be up to an individual to decide what that means. If it means they feel they need to wait till the bad guy is bad breath range away before shooting them because they know they can't hit them at 4yds, then that's what they believe is best. The state shouldn't be mandating what you have to prove.

But people should not be taking negligent shots, which means only taking shots that are within their capability to ensure are not putting others at great risk. If you can't put 5 for 5 on a torso sized target at 4yds in a non-stressed situation, your shooting is negligent under a life and death situation unless the bad guy's back stop is the side of a hill with no one on that hill. Or you need to wait for the bad guy to be closer to you, because you can be so wildly off, your cone of fire is GIANT and almost impossible to ensure that you aren't shooting someone behind or near the bad guy, or putting one through a window of a house behind and two doors down from the bad guy, etc. That's a cone of fire of over 5 degrees on the horizontal and 11 degrees on the vertical.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

That's going to be HARD to do. Draw from concealment with an empty firearm...

Now instructors working through a range will probably not have as hard a time, but I am not aware of any public ranges that allow drawing from a holster or drawing from concealment. Empty gun or not. That's Maryland, not NY, but I suspect NY isn't going to be a whole lot better about that.

That is supposed to be done at the end of the 2hrs of instruction on the range, so unless an instructor is fudging it and had student demonstrate some of that stuff during classroom time and dummy guns...

Also how's the training going to pan out with the upcoming temporary restraining order on sensitive places? NY says you must instruct students on the new sensitive places (everywhere. Don't bother getting this permit), and yet I suspect in the next couple of days NY is going to be restrained from enforcing the sensitive places restrictions.

PS Also, IMHO if you can't hit 5/5 at 4yds, you SHOULD be failed. Missing one at 4 yards under range conditions on a B27 to me is a negligent discharge.

Note that live ammunition is not required. So that could be done in the classroom.

What gets me is it says a holster. No requirement that the holster be attached to you. So I could be holding the holsters gun in my left hand. and pull with my right hand. Or many other possible other possibilities.

 

[Bob A]

I confess to missing 5 out of 25, mostly at 10 & 15 yeards. In my defense, I did my best to practice a form of point shooting, ignoring my sights and letting fly as soon as my muzzle seemed to be pointing at the target. No problem at shorter distances. I was sufficiently pleased at the result, and I expect to be practicing the technique a lot in future. Not too many thugs stand still while you line up your sights.

It's what the instructor wanted; many of the the others obviously took a bit more time to actually aim, which defeated the purpose of the exercise IMO.

 

[Harrys]

I had one over 40 years ago when i lived there unrestricted except for NYC, Buffalo and Suffock County. Maybe when I head up for some Bear hunting I will apply for one in the county where I grew up. My brother in law is a retired LT in the sheriff's office and the judge who signs them was a classmate.

 

[Mark75H]

Note that live ammunition is not required. So that could be done in the classroom.

What gets me is it says a holster. No requirement that the holster be attached to you. So I could be holding the holsters gun in my left hand. and pull with my right hand. Or many other possible other possibilities.

A+ on reading comprehension

 

[Biggfoot44]

I disagree completely with your final thought.

There should be no qual.

Disabled people may not be able to pull off the qual.

The class and the qual is discrimination.

The elderly and disabled are those most in need of an Equalizer , they have little or no plan B , and are disporportionatly targeted for being percieved an easy mark .

You're 87yo , with arthritis , and need a cane/ walker/ wheelchair . Just standing unassisted for 25 rounds . much less 2 or 300 . ain't in the cards .

Putting at least one round ( ideally several ) into a mugger / rapist/ home invader from two arm lengths away is 1,000 times better than them being beaten/ dead .

 

[hogarth]

The elderly and disabled are those most in need of an Equalizer , they have little or no plan B , and are disporportionatly targeted for being percieved an easy mark .

You're 87yo , with arthritis , and need a cane/ walker/ wheelchair . Just standing unassisted for 25 rounds . much less 2 or 300 . ain't in the cards .

Putting at least one round ( ideally several ) into a mugger / rapist/ home invader from two arm lengths away is 1,000 times better than them being beaten/ dead .

4 yards isn't much more than 2 arms lengths. It's two arms lengths and a lunge. And we're talking about 5 rounds, not 25 (in NY). If they can't get those hits then I question whether or not they'd even be able to access their gun in their time of need.

I'm not saying the govt should say "no" to people who can't get those hits....but if some old or infirm person decides to do a bullet hose special when trying to defend themselves and hits my wife or kids, I'm gonna go all Magua on him and his whole family.

Take some personal responsibility and learn to get your hits.

 

[outrider58]

I confess to missing 5 out of 25, mostly at 10 & 15 yeards. In my defense, I did my best to practice a form of point shooting, ignoring my sights and letting fly as soon as my muzzle seemed to be pointing at the target. No problem at shorter distances. I was sufficiently pleased at the result, and I expect to be practicing the technique a lot in future. Not too many thugs stand still while you line up your sights.

It's what the instructor wanted; many of the the others obviously took a bit more time to actually aim, which defeated the purpose of the exercise IMO.

Point shooting at 10 yds, maybe. 15 yds though? I'm aiming.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

What gets me on all states training requirements, including NY’s and even Californias new proposed law which is emulating Ny’s new one as well.

Is the time requirement. Several reasons…


1. Problem it is old school thinking. Even for liberals. What May take one person 3 hours to learn may only take another person an hour and a half to learn. Some people are faster learners, as well as some people may have had prior training. Before I had my first class I had been shooting for 10 years or longer. With my dad and grandfather teaching me most of what they learned in the Military/CIA/Law Enforcment.

2. One can cover the same material with a smaller group of people in less time then one can cover the same material with a class size of 30. I do private one on one training, or one on 2 or 3. I can cover 8 hours of material in about 4-5 with 1-3 students.

I do like the test idea of NY, but why not do that first thing in the class. If I make a 90% or say even a 95% then I am excused from classes. Then go do my shooting qual. or should I say it’s more like a practical firearm safety handling test then shooting test.

If I pass those. consider it done as though I have taken the class.

It’s interesting, for a couple of states that I have received my PTC/LTC for, all I showed Was that I was an NRA instructor. For MD. W&C permit. I became a QHIC Instructor. So didn’t have to spend 16hrs taking the class. Although I had spent many more hours in many more classes becoming the various level instructors for Texas, Utah, Illinois, and the NRA.

Not that NY will grant a Non-Resident permit, unless certain conditions apply. But I looking At what it might take to be an approved NY instructor. However, based on the NEW law that might get enjoined. Being an instructor would NOT save me from taking the initial training, but would save me from taking renewal classes.

Lets see what happens With the injunction and what parts and to what degree the new law is enjoined.

 

[Biggfoot44]

It's very little if any about teaching skills , it's about creating obstacles to discourage people .

Taking up lots of hours is a Feature . not a fault .

 

[cyberalex]

It's very little if any about teaching skills , it's about creating obstacles to discourage people .

Taking up lots of hours is a Feature . not a fault .

It makes no sense to me. The government doesn't teach students life skills that they need in the future like how to pay taxes or how to get a job. There wern't any workshops specifically on how to be a good employee or something like that.

 

[Biggfoot44]

No , it's not supposed to make sense . It's designed on purpose to not be logical .

The purpose is to be a pain in the @$$ to discourage people from carrying , and evoking " training" is just the rhetorical fig leaf