NRA Defensive HG course????

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  • C45P312

    Member
    Jan 17, 2012
    56
    Virginia
    You would have to ask an instructor. Ken said it was to familiarize you to the sound of unmuffled gunfire, so if it ever happened where you had to shoot w/o ear protection, you wouldn't be so starteled you would panic.

    Thanks. I can understand why he did it. I just need to know if it is part of the NRA curriculum. Email went to IOTA.
     

    Chasbo00

    Active Member
    Jun 30, 2012
    304
    Northern VA
    I'm having trouble completing this sentence: It's important that the defensive carry student experience firing a pistol without hearing protection because...
     

    ProShooter

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2008
    4,189
    Richmond, Va
    I'm having trouble completing this sentence: It's important that the defensive carry student experience firing a pistol without hearing protection because...

    You can't complete that sentence, because it shouldn't happen. It goes against any basic application of live fire training, and isn't necessary when you consider the fact that you won't hear the shot anyway when facing a defensive use of your handgun due to auditory exclusion.
     

    Tom Perroni

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 26, 2009
    1,197
    Virginia
    Facts about shooting sports

    Facts about shooting sports

    Over 43 million people in the U.S. have hunted at least one time in their lifetime
    An estimated 20 million people in the U.S. are active hunters
    An estimated 21 million people are target shooters
    Hunters spend more than $2.7 billion on hunting equipment each year
    Although hearing protection is often recommended, there are still shooters that do not use it. Many may have a hearing loss already. For those with a sensorineural hearing loss, and for those new to the shooting sports without a hearing loss, it is important to protect all residual hearing.

    Sound basics

    To understand some of the problems associated with shooting sports, it is necessary to be familiar with some definitions. The loudness of sound is referred to as intensity. The frequency (or pitch) of sound refers to how rapidly the sound vibrates. Intensity is more accurately measured as sound pressure level (SPL), and expressed in decibels. A 10 dB increase in sound pressure level will result in doubling of the loudness level!! For example, a firearm producing a sound pressure level of 150 dBSPL is twice as loud as a rifle producing 140 dBSPL of intensity. It should be noted that the shorter the barrel, the louder the sound. Also it is apparent that often the larger caliber does not necessarily correlate with the loudness of the firearm. Muzzle brakes or recoil suppressors can also significantly increase the sound intensity.

    Sound intensity of various firearms:

    There are other factors, which result in greater noise injury. They include lack of or inadequate ear protection, and repetitive shooting or increased exposure of shooting time. Most people who perform shooting sports will have one ear, which has a greater hearing impairment than the other side. This is due to one ear being closer to the end of the gun barrel of a rifle or a shotgun. However, if one does pistol shooting, the hearing loss may be the same in both ears. Shorter barrel lengths will also result in a greater noise injury. The use of alcohol while shooting may result in additional noise trauma. In the middle ear, a small muscle is present that is attached to one of the bones (e.g. stapes), which moves the fluid in the inner ear. Alcohol suppresses the protective muscle reflex, which normally prevents this bone from vibrating too forcibly into the inner ear.

    Many people who have had exposure to shooting sports felt that being in the open field was less likely to cause noise trauma than being in an enclosed space. Also many have thought shooting only once or twice a year was not likely to cause a hearing loss. However this is quite the opposite. In reviewing cases of acute acoustical trauma from gunfire, over 40% had noticeable acoustical trauma caused by a single shot. Ninety-two percent of all of these traumatic incidents occurred within 6 feet of the firearm. Most (83%) wore no ear protection when the traumatic episode occurred.

    Temporary hearing loss

    Often when exposed to impact sounds, such as a firearm, or to loud speakers in a music concert, a patient will have symptoms of fullness in the ears with decreased hearing. It often feels as though the ears are “stopped up”. This is due to a temporary threshold shift. The temporary threshold shift will return to normal within a few days. Temporary threshold shifts can be indicators of noise exposures that lead to permanent hearing loss. The cause of this temporary hearing loss is due partly to structural changes of the hair cells (e.g. buckling of the supporting cells and uncoupling of the sterocilia from the tectorial membrane). There are also other structural changes that can effect the metabolic activity of the cells within the cochlea.

    Symptoms of noise trauma

    • Tinnitus (ringing in the ear),
    • Fullness or pressure in the ear
    • Hearing loss
    • Occasionally a feeling of dizziness
    • Difficulty hearing high pitch sounds (birds, children’s & women’s voices)
    • Difficulty understanding speech in background noise
    • Comfort range of sounds, soft sounds increasing to loud sounds, becomes reduced or limited (decreased dynamic range of hearing)

    What are the permanent changes to the ear itself?

    Loss of inner and outer hair cells within the inner ear.
    Injury to the intricate nature of the inner ear such as swelling and increased lysosomes in all cellular organelles. (The lysosomes are the cells' garbage disposal system and degrade worn out organelles such as mitochondria). Reduction in the number of inner ear capillaries have also been seen.
    Degeneration of the ganglion cells (cells that send sound signals to the brain) in the inner ear (cochlea).

    Eardrum (tympanic membrane) perforation can occur with explosive injuries. 95% of these traumatic perforations heal spontaneously.
    What does that mean for communication ability?
    Generally, a noise induced hearing loss is associated with a high-frequency hearing impairment. Classically it occurs at 4KHz. With time, not only can the high frequencies be affected, but the middle and low frequencies may be involved as well. In speech, high frequency sounds are “th”, “sh”, “s”, “t”, “p”, “k”, etc. You may hear the word “kind” as “time”. Therefore, as the hearing loss continues to diminish, speech intelligibility also decreases. A comprehensive hearing evaluation will map out hearing ability on an audiogram. Additionally, sophisticated testing such as otoacoustic emissions (link) have demonstrated a decrease in hair cells function with exposure to noise over time

    Hearing protection

    Using hearing protection in the form of earmuffs and/or earplugs is crucial for hearing preservation. The factors that affect ear protection include the shape or style of the earmuff, the noise reduction rating of the ear protection used, the type of earplugs, and thermal effects when using foam inserts.

    Earmuffs

    Earmuffs fit around the head and over the ear to provide a tight acoustic seal. The shape and size of the earmuff may often affect the effectiveness of the sound reduction. Often large rectangular muffs may interfere with the stock section as it is firmly placed near the shooters cheek. The stock of the firearm can lift the earmuff slightly from the cheek surface, exposing the ear canal to sound, thereby lessening the sound protection ability. Some earmuffs are designed to eliminate the point of contact of the muff with the cheek plate on the stock. Rounded muffs and tapered muffs allow the stock to fit firmly against the cheek and yet not come into contact with the earmuff. There are also muffs that will fit around the neck and allow people to use a wide brimmed hat.

    Earplugs

    Earplugs are placed into the ear canal to form a seal and block sound. There are different types of earplugs including custom made products, foam or silastic ear plugs. Frequently, those that are custom made may have to be remade after 2 years, as the material shrinks and/or deteriorates. The ear canal over time may change in size, therefore resulting in a poor fit and less protection. Foam inserts can be excellent and are often quite comfortable and cheaper than earmuffs or custom made ear inserts. Foam earplugs are lighter and more easily packed in such activities as mountain hunting, and when shooters are wearing wide brimmed hats. There are some thermal effects using earplugs, which can be a disadvantage. Specifically in cold weather, the foam does not seem to be as occlusive as it is in warmer weather and therefore greater noise reduction can be achieved with a muff in very cold weather when compared to the foam ear insert. Lastly, there are silastic earplugs, which have flanges on them and are in different sizes.

    Electronic earplugs or earmuffs

    Options for hearing protection also include electronic earplugs or electronic earmuffs. These specifically are designed to allow the person shooting to hear environmental sounds or communicate more easily with family or friends while wearing ear protection. When a firearm is discharged, a special filter closes, within the device, to eliminate noise over 85 decibels, thus protecting the hearing. However these devices are generally not as effective in noise reduction. As the sound (traveling about 761 mph, or 1100 feet/second) hits the electronic device, there is a 0.5 to 1 millisecond period of time before the internal circuitry can be completely activated to suppress the sound. According to OSHA guidelines, these very minute bursts are not prolonged enough to cause significant damage. It is the opinion of Dr. Krueger that they have a place when there is a need to instruct or communicate with others while hunting, or when there is a need to listen to surrounding environmental sounds. They are not recommended for use at a shooting range

    Prevention of hearing loss

    It is recommended that you always use ear protection with appropriate noise reduction rating (NRR) of at least 29 dB. The evidence is clear that double protection (i.e. earmuff and insert earplug) is better; therefore double protection should be used if possible. For those individuals who are doing dangerous game hunting, it is suggested that an electronic device be used to protect the hearing and for listening in hazardous surroundings. For others who want the best of both worlds, use an insert in the ear canal and wear an electronic earmuff over the ear. Therefore when impact sound is heard, such as a gunshot, the minute sound that is not suppressed by the electronic device will be suppressed by the insert in the canal.

    Strategies for those with hearing loss

    When a sensorineural hearing loss does exist, there are options. Some include speech strategy techniques and preferential seating. Specifically, those people who have a hearing impairment should sit more closely to the individual speaking to them. Every attempt should be made to control the level of background sound. If dining in a restaurant, they should also position themselves facing their guest and the wall. Try to sit in a high-backed booth away from the kitchen and entrance and in an area of good lighting. Amplification via hearing aids and/or assistive listening devices also provide options for many people with a hearing impairment. With the advancements in hearing aid technology, benefits can be perceived in a variety of listening situations, including background noise.

    Just my $0.02
     

    C45P312

    Member
    Jan 17, 2012
    56
    Virginia
    Facts about shooting sports

    Over 43 million people in the U.S. have hunted at least one time in their lifetime
    An estimated 20 million people in the U.S. are active hunters
    An estimated 21 million people are target shooters
    Hunters spend more than $2.7 billion on hunting equipment each year
    Although hearing protection is often recommended, there are still shooters that do not use it. Many may have a hearing loss already. For those with a sensorineural hearing loss, and for those new to the shooting sports without a hearing loss, it is important to protect all residual hearing.

    Sound basics

    Sound intensity of various firearms:

    Temporary hearing loss

    Symptoms of noise trauma

    • Tinnitus (ringing in the ear),
    • Fullness or pressure in the ear
    • Hearing loss
    • Occasionally a feeling of dizziness
    • Difficulty hearing high pitch sounds (birds, children’s & women’s voices)
    • Difficulty understanding speech in background noise
    • Comfort range of sounds, soft sounds increasing to loud sounds, becomes reduced or limited (decreased dynamic range of hearing)

    What are the permanent changes to the ear itself?

    Hearing protection

    Earmuffs

    Earplugs

    Electronic earplugs or earmuffs

    Prevention of hearing loss

    Strategies for those with hearing loss

    Just my $0.02
    So are you for or against having your students shoot their firearms without hearing protection? Though the information you post is great, I can't tell if you where you stand on the issue here.
     

    CypherPunk

    Opinions Are My Own
    Apr 6, 2012
    3,907
    I'm having trouble completing this sentence: It's important that the defensive carry student experience firing a pistol without hearing protection because...

    It is advantageous for the defensive carry student to have the opportunity to experience firing a shot, or the opportunity to be in the area while a single shot is fired - without hearing protection.

    You are less likely to be as startled by the sound of your own gun used without hearing protection, if you are more prepared, than if you are not.

    You may have a different opinion, and that's fine.

    While I appreciate the importance of hearing protection, I also recognize the indisputable benefits of realistic training, to the extent practical and logical.
     

    Chasbo00

    Active Member
    Jun 30, 2012
    304
    Northern VA
    You are less likely to be as startled by the sound of your own gun used without hearing protection, if you are more prepared, than if you are not.

    Any data to back up that statement? I think it's total BS and that it contributes nothing towards preparing someone for using their handgun in a lethal force situation. What it does do is introduce an unnecessary hearing loss risk. I'm a strong proponent for realistic training and more than willing to accept training risk when it's justified. Introducing training risk because someone thinks it's cool is well, stupid.
     

    ProShooter

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2008
    4,189
    Richmond, Va
    Any data to back up that statement? I think it's total BS and that it contributes nothing towards preparing someone for using their handgun in a lethal force situation. What it does do is introduce an unnecessary hearing loss risk. I'm a strong proponent for realistic training and more than willing to accept training risk when it's justified. Introducing training risk because someone thinks it's cool is well, stupid.

    This.
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    It is advantageous for the defensive carry student to have the opportunity to experience firing a shot, or the opportunity to be in the area while a single shot is fired - without hearing protection.

    You are less likely to be as startled by the sound of your own gun used without hearing protection, if you are more prepared, than if you are not.

    You may have a different opinion, and that's fine.

    While I appreciate the importance of hearing protection, I also recognize the indisputable benefits of realistic training, to the extent practical and logical.

    Have you ever fired a handgun in a life threating situation?

    I'm guessing no...very few report even hearing the shot.

    Firing a gun without hearing protection for "practice" is stupid. If your life is in danger you wont be startled at all by a big bang....there's to much going on.
     

    C45P312

    Member
    Jan 17, 2012
    56
    Virginia
    It is advantageous for the defensive carry student to have the opportunity to experience firing a shot, or the opportunity to be in the area while a single shot is fired - without hearing protection.

    You are less likely to be as startled by the sound of your own gun used without hearing protection, if you are more prepared, than if you are not.

    You may have a different opinion, and that's fine.

    While I appreciate the importance of hearing protection, I also recognize the indisputable benefits of realistic training, to the extent practical and logical.

    Since we're on the subject of realistic training ... how do you induce the adrenaline rush so that the student knows how their body will react and change drastically due to fear.
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    Think shooting without hearing protection makes you tough and is more realistic? Why not up the anti and punch your partner in the face before shooting, or pepper spray him before doing a live fire house clearing drill. It gets cold too, how about doing the course wet in your skivvies outside in freezing conditions? I'm sure there are a lot of other equally dumb ideas that don't even violate range or gun safety rules.

    Just trying to point out the silliness of intentionally shooting without heading protection.

    While I'm complaining, this NRA training seems like such a racket; too many other NRA courses you must take first. Seems like this training is for people that didn't get proper mil/LEO or other compotent training. There's probably a niche for folks that want 'NRA credentials' so they can legitimize charging people to provide training. I can better accept this and appreciate trying to standardize the basics. I also appreciate folks that do provide training it's a needed service; I've met several excellent civilian trainers, but the legitimacy of this training is severely compromised by a lack of fundamental safety practices.

    Anyone new to this subject, please take my advice:
    - Never intentionally shoot without hearing protection unless your life depends on it.
    - NRA is ok for basics, but take a multi day course from a recognized facility. You do get what you pay for and do your research.

    I feel better now, might have saved someone's hearing.
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    1-Skivvies-Snowball-Buffalo-N-thumb-375xauto-16693.jpg
     
    First and foremost, we at IOTA value everyone’s safety that enters our classroom and steps on the range for skill development. The class begins by asking why this course is of interest and the background of each participant. I hope the following will quell any apprehension with regard to IOTA Firearms and Security Academy, Inc. as it relates to our qualifications, safety record and NRAs Defensive Pistol Course:

    NRA Defensive Pistol Course Description: The NRA Defensive Pistol Course is conducted by a select group of NRA Advanced Pistol Instructors. The training focuses on technique and the development of a defensive mindset. The goal of the course is to further develop the Knowledge, Skills, and Attitude necessary to carry and employ a concealed pistol ethically, responsibly, and with confidence. Upon successful completion of this training student's should be able to demonstrate the following:

    • Know NRA Rules for Safe Gun Handling and How Applied when Carrying Concealed
    • Moral Responsibility when Carrying Concealed
    • Methods to Steer Clear of Threatening Confrontations
    • Continuum of Force - Mental Preparation Staying Within the Law
    • Developing a Defensive Survival Mindset when Incorporating a Handgun into Personal Protection Strategy
    • Psychological and Physiological Changes You May Experience Throughout an Attack
    • Cover and Concealment
    • Proficiently Presenting – Holstering Your Handgun
    • Flash Sight Picture (FSP) – No Bulleyes Shooting
    • Reloading Under Stress – No Magazine Ammunition Loaders
    • Competently Rectify Malfunctions and Stoppages
    • Optional Real World One Shooter at a Time Exercises Shoot 1-5 Rounds Void of Ear Protection and Increased Heart Rate Shooting.

    Required Equipment:
    • Semi-Auto Pistol – We Offer Separate Course for Revolvers and Handbags
    • Strong Side Holster with Appropriate Stack – Preferably Double Magazine Pouches
    • Minimum of 3 Magazines (9x19, .357 Sig .40 Cal, etc) 4+ for Model 1911’s .45 ACP
    • Minimum 250 rounds of ammunition w/ another 100 if you desire to hone a particular skill
    • Cleaning kit
    • Season appropriate clothing
    • Eye and Ear Protection

    Only those students with a “Good Attitude”, Who Successfully Complete the Course of Fire and Holstering are awarded the course completion certificate.

    We take enormous pride in never having a safety incident/accident since our conception almost a decade ago. For more information regarding IOTA Firearms and Security Training Academy go to info@iotafast.com or call Customer Care at 1-800-771-IOTA or 410-462-4682 for additional details.

    Keep Your Heads Down and Powder Dry,

    Ken Brown
    • MD State Police Qualified Handgun Instructor
    • Utah Certified CFP Instructor
    • Delaware CCDW Permit Instructor/Firm On Record
    • NRA Appointed Training Counselor
    • NRA Regional Counselor Refuse To Be A Victim®
    • NRA Chief Range Safety Officer
    • NRA Appointed and Certified Advanced Pistol Instructor
    • NRA Instructor:
    • NRA Home Firearm Safety
    • NRA Basic/F.I.R.S.T Steps Pistol, Rifle and Shotgun
    • NRA Personal Protection Inside and Outside The Home
    • NRA Metallic Cartridge and Shotgun Shell Reloading
    • NRA Range Safety Officer
    • NRA Refuse To Be A Victim®
     

    Chris

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Jun 21, 2005
    2,128
    Cecil Co, Maryland
    Not being a firearms instructor as many in this thread ( just 25 years as a Maryland Hunter's Safety Instructor) I think it's funny how a training technique is jumped on by others who either don't use or understand. The last series of courses I recently took (CMCT) we were told that their training skill sets were "A way to achieve the goal but the not the only way". And that is the story here. If one were to take a class from everybody on this forum who is a firearms instructor, I am sure the student would find that all of the courses are very similar but each has it's own different technique to get to the goal. As for having to remove one's hearing protection to hear a firearm being discharged could be a valuable technique to teach the newbies. How many times have you heard a loud sound and the person next to you says "it's gun fire" but you know it's a backfire from a car. Again I think it's silly to argue about these different techniques, I'm sure that none of you would force a student to do something that they were not comfortable with. For full disclosure I have worked with Ken Brown as well as Bryan Fletcher, as Chairman of Baltimore County Game & Fish's Utah Concealed Carry Permit Classes. Chris
     

    Minuteman

    Member
    BANNED!!!
    First and foremost, we at IOTA value everyone’s safety that enters our classroom and steps on the range for skill development. ...
    • Optional Real World One Shooter at a Time Exercises Shoot 1-5 Rounds Void of Ear Protection and Increased Heart Rate Shooting.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sounds like good training. I'm curious to know more... is this 'real world' no hearing protection shooting happen indoors or in a vehicle? Don't you think it's more realistic for an inside the home defense course to fire the gun inside a room? And I don't sleep with eye protection, or gloves so maybe those could be optional too? I can imagine a lot of likely scenarios where I might be car jacked or robbed sitting in my car at an ATM; so shooting in a vehicle's pretty realistic too don't you think?

    I get the point of shooting without hearing protection; but I just feel that the very limited additional training benefit is not worth the risk of damage to ones hearing. I won't recommend your training to any of my associates, and I strongly urge anyone reading this to avoid any training that would even allow a participant to do such a foolish and unsafe act.

    Hope you can convince NRA to modify this portion of the training.

    If we accept this what's next? Do you know what a bullet whizzing past you sounds like? I do, and it's not something I recommend either.

    Respectfully submitted.

    Stay safe.

    See my discussion on the important topic of protecting your hearing:
    http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=1932935#post1932935
     
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