MSP Got one... Instructor caught cutting corners, permits invalidated.

[Spaceballs]

Re-read the 2A.

Really just the last 4 words of 2A are all that need to be reviewed for the purposes of this discussion.

 

[Brychan]

Again, you have no case law that opined that mandatory training was unconstitutional, therefore making illegal to institute. I already said I was against any real violation of the 2nd, so I don’t have to make it kosher.

But, I’ll let this go. All I’ll continue to get is sophomoric, cretin-like insults Lol. Maybe I‘ll start that foundation for those that cannot afford the training, and continue to monetarily support MSI And their efforts to repeal the 16 hr constraints.

I will try one last time, just because Maryland and a few other states have gotten away with for so long the infringement of a civil right of including training and even permits themselves does not make it constitutional. Look at how long it took for the courts rule that good and substantial was unconstitutional. Unfortunately the court can't or won't rule on all the infringements in one fell swoop. It is done piece meal, as each part works its way through the courts. It's a slow process.

 

[swinokur]

No one changed Quisling’s mind.

You won’t either


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[rbird7282]

This is the EXACT argument the left uses to deny photo is requirements for voting.

And when you call them out on the hypocrisy, they call you racist.

They use that argument even when state legislatures propose a bill to offer a number of ways to get people a FREE government issued ID.


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[hodgepodge]

Cite a case where training was found to be unconstitutional.

OK. Test vs. training. Same principle.

1949​

Although literacy tests for voting apply to both blacks and whites, they exclude more African Americans from registration because of poor education and discriminatory administration that require African American applicants to pass more difficult tests. The U.S. Supreme Court in Davis v. Schnell hold Alabama’s literacy test unconstitutional as it is clearly intended to deny the vote to African Americans and thus violates the Fifteenth Amendment.

 

[teratos]

They use that argument even when state legislatures propose a bill to offer a number of ways to get people a FREE government issued ID.

I'd like to know how anyone does anything without ID. Work, cash a check, get government assistance.

 

[jrumann59]

Go home and get your fvcking shine box

Please consider killing yourself (with extreme prejudice)

Your momma!

.... and the horse you rode in on!

So's you old man!




Statists gonna Statist.

 

[swinokur]

Stop with the facts already


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[jrumann59]

Did Frosh join MDS? Just wondering.

if he did he joined in 2016. Looks like I have another member requesting to join my ignore list.

 

[lazarus]

The wide variability/costs is a perfect free market solution. State-run [insert thing here] will generally be the least efficient method of doing something, and it will be done using our tax dollars. Hard pass on that.

The market sorting itself out is exactly what I'd like to see happen. As it stands, the required training needs to take 16 hours and cover the HQL requirements. That's it. If someone wants more than that, fantastic. If not, that's fine. Of course the more good training someone receives, the better.

We agree of course that mandatory training, particularly an onerous requirement of 16 hours, is complete crap.



States' rights aren't a bitch. They do not come at the expense of those that belong to the people first, however. Again, there is literally no other fundamental, enumerated right that requires training to exercise it. The 2A is not a second class amendment, despite what the grabbers and the "I support the 2A, but" simpletons would say on the matter.

The text of the 2A is clear to anyone who has a rough understanding of the language and the context of the time in which it was written. Heller states that enumerated rights are understood to have the scope that they had at the time of their adoption. In no way, shape, or form was training a requirement to keep and bear arms in 1791, and it was not required at the reconstruction. Bruen cites Heller throughout the opinion. The right isn't even subject to strict scrutiny. It's that fundamental.

You are correct that training was not explicitly struck down by Bruen or any other 2A case, but it cannot withstand that test as outlined above.

Defending training requirements because it's the state requiring them as opposed to the feds is embracing the willful disenfranchisement of certain people. Even if it is the states saying so and not the feds, that doesn't make it right.

I suppose it was just crying when we had laws in this country that disenfranchised folks of a different race, sex, and/or religion. Black Catholic women should have just gone over or around those laws. It turns out, the 2A is meant exactly for that kind of shit.

Free market only works well if the supply and demand parties are on an equal playing field with equal knowledge. That works relatively well for commodity things, it works less well for things that aren't or there is inelastic supply and demand. I am not saying the free market isn't a solution, but it works less well. Government supplied might not work as well still, but they are closet to parity for certain.

Areas where free market is broken, at least without government regulation and oversight come into things where the power dynamic is wildly overbalanced and/or supply and demand is totally inelastic. Or government is much more efficient. Oversight, policing, emergency services, military/defense transportation, utilities, monopolistic services. Private companies can provide that stuff, but not without significant regulation or they do not work well and are not remotely cost competitive to a government provider of the service.

In this case, yes free market is a good provider, with sufficient regulation. There are mandates on how long it has to be, and some very light details on what should be in it. The only way it works well is controls on the providers. Whether that is knowing MSP is going to be spot checking EVERYONE at some point and know that there are penalties associated with not complying with regulations. Requiring trainers to provide their course materials for review, etc.

I am not saying MSP must, should, or has to step into that. But one way to level things for the consumer is to have more oversight from government.

A better solution is we drop training as a requirement...

 

[clandestine]

The mandatory training people can kiss my butthole.

 

[jrumann59]

A famous man once said, "If you find yourself in a hole, the wise thing to do is quit digging."

 

[swinokur]

That’s a big kiss bro


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[Harrys]

The real issue is upcomming when new MD inacts new legiation making it more difficult to renew permits. Weeding out instructors is just the beginning.

 

[OMD6dawg]

I will try one last time, just because Maryland and a few other states have gotten away with for so long the infringement of a civil right of including training and even permits themselves does not make it constitutional. Look at how long it took for the courts rule that good and substantial was unconstitutional. Unfortunately the court can't or won't rule on all the infringements in one fell swoop. It is done piece meal, as each part works its way through the courts. It's a slow process.

I’m not in disagreement with you.

 

[ICW2019]

The support for infringement of 2a is strong in this thread. Seems like y'all supporting training (poll tax) before exercising your rights would fit right in with the MGA this January.

 

[swinokur]

Yep he’s here

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[Face]

16 hours is clearly defined. If the instructor cuts corners and attendees stay silent then they are complicit.

Many on here feel wronged with the whole idea of training. While everyone is entitled to their opinion mine differs. I do not want uneducated and inexperienced people carrying. Same logic applies people driving on the road and the requirement of a DL.

Driving a car is not a "right" as self protection is.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Let’s start a foundation where if one can’t “afford“ the onerous fees of the crown, then that foundation would help offset it by providing the training free of charge, or pay a trainer to do it.

I'm too Luddite to move a quote to a different thread , so all y'all look for the new thread I will start shortly .

 

[Blacksmith101]

It could have been a lot worse. I'm glad I had never taken the NRA course before this. I'm not sure I could have sat through it a second time, lol(I scored a 50 out of 50 on the quiz).

You should have tried harder imagine your score if you had given it 110% effort.