MSP Appeals to the Office of Administrative Hearings

[danb]

Case was moot. The license in question had already been renewed with restrictions back in place.

Really?? So to summarize: My dog is smarter than Bowen.

Well, at least they are stupid, there is that.

 

[Muleskinner]

Just goes to show you what an anti-constitution agency MSP really is. They put up hurdles making it hard for law-abiding citizens to carry at every step. They have turned the 2A into a class-based privilege system. The hatred for the 2A runs deep at all levels of Maryland government, perhaps the only exception being the useless governor.

If you still think Hogan is pro 2A you haven't been paying attention. Someone please link the picture of Hogan signing away our rights while surrounded by the harpies from MOM'S DEMAND STUPIDITY

 

[swinokur]

This pro 2A guy?
.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The OAH hearing is de novo , so they're not bound by the HPBR's reasonings or decisions .

Now where it could get interesting , is dealing with material facts given under oath at HPRB . IANAL , but await input from legal eagles on this .

 

[swinokur]

To the MSP LD, facts are whatever they say they are.
.

 

[Biggfoot44]

We know that . But when they say XYZ under oath in venue A, and PDQ under oath in venue B , then what ?

Or one step further , say XYZ under oath in venue A , and try to skirt the issue in venue B , and it is in the citizen's interest to bring forth fact XYZ ?

 

[Muleskinner]

This pro 2A guy?
.

that's the one. 6 years ago my ex would have been sitting right there with them. She moved to Alaska and tried the same crap which went over like a fart in church. Now my daughter who also lives in Alaska is asking me advice on a gun to carry while hiking to ward off bear andd wolf attacks. That has to be driving her mother crazy (ier)

 

[swinokur]

We know that . But when they say XYZ under oath in venue A, and PDQ under oath in venue B , then what ?

Or one step further , say XYZ under oath in venue A , and try to skirt the issue in venue B , and it is in the citizen's interest to bring forth fact XYZ ?

They didn’t perjure themselves in front of the HPRB and if they say something different in front of an ALJ they haven’t perjured themselves in front of that ALJ either.

It’s De Novo right? They get a total do over

See how that works?

The facts according to the MSP LD are whatever they say they are

 

[Biggfoot44]

I know the MSP would like things that way , but I am aware of sworn testimony in one venue by a person , being referenced in another venue ( ie civil vs crim ) .

So I'm still looking for an Eagle to clarify for us .

 

[lawdog89]

I am a active police officer and MSP put a restriction on my carry permit. I have my carry permit because it's easier to get it while you are working than after you retire. I would like to appeal the restriction but not sure how or if it's worth the aggravation.

 

[eruby]

I am a active police officer and MSP put a restriction on my carry permit. I have my carry permit because it's easier to get it while you are working than after you retire. I would like to appeal the restriction but not sure how or if it's worth the aggravation.

Smarter folks than I (everyone), will answer your 'how to' question. But only you can answer the above bolded.


Now, what is this "carry permit", of which you speak?

 

[BeoBill]

These cases are nothing more than trial balloons. MSP is sending them to the administrative law judge just to see what their stance will be regarding State Police denial. Since these judges can ignore the findings and ruling from the HPRB it will basically come down to the applicant''s good and substantial reason versus the state police and completely shut out the board which is the intent of this law anyway. If these judges stand by the state police denial and they probably will, you're going to see nearly every decision by the HPRB appealed and overturned. And for those of you who had to go through a board hearing to appeal an MSP denial chances are probably pretty good that when you come up for renewal you're going to face the same action from the state police.

Absolutely correct. If y'all will recall, the original intent of the MGA last session was to eliminate the HPRB entirely. Sensing a potential high-profile lawsuit and nationwide sunlight, the reprehensible vermin instead decided to insert to OAG into the appeal process. And yes, the rogue AG is perfectly aligned with these appeals.

If the MSP should by some miracle ignore his demands (via AAG Bowen), he would merely sue the MSP. Long, drawn out expensive lawsuits are his weapon of choice, if anyone hasn't yet noticed. His strategy is to either exhaust the time or the resources of his victims and have them settle.

This is how we become a police state. Tyranny by courtroom.

 

[rbird7282]

The OAH hearing is de novo , so they're not bound by the HPBR's reasonings or decisions .

Now where it could get interesting , is dealing with material facts given under oath at HPRB . IANAL , but await input from legal eagles on this .

But that doesn’t mean the judge can’t take it into account....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BeoBill]

I am a active police officer and MSP put a restriction on my carry permit. I have my carry permit because it's easier to get it while you are working than after you retire. I would like to appeal the restriction but not sure how or if it's worth the aggravation.

That simply astounds me! They really do despise everyone!

 

[rambling_one]

Only if it can be proven that a mistake in law was made. IIRC it was mentioned OAH rulings can be appealed to Circuit Court but I don’t think OAH rulings are precedent to a Court.

If one case gets decide for an applicant, there goes your argument.

But IANAL

So, HPRB decisions are non-precedent as are those made by OAH. Neat arrangement, hey?

 

[shootin the breeze]

I am a active police officer and MSP put a restriction on my carry permit. I have my carry permit because it's easier to get it while you are working than after you retire. I would like to appeal the restriction but not sure how or if it's worth the aggravation.

Stupid crap like that and the severe penalties that may be laid upon you for carrying outside of restrictions and the ramifications of even an arrest for me are why I’m not renewing my permit.

 

[zoostation]

The legal counsel for MSP is AAG Mark Bowen. MSP follows his direction.

Who does he work for?

Not Hogan.

I understand that, my point is that the function and legal place of the AG's office is to serve as counsel and represent MSP in certain matters. Not to tell them what to do. The AG's office has no more legal standing to order MSP to file an appeal than a private lawyer has to order someone in an accident to file a lawsuit. MSP works for Hogan, not Frosh. If MSP is letting the AG's office tell them to file cases for things like this then it's because somewhere in the MSP (or higher) chain someone wants to, or just doesn't want to challenge the AG's office.

This is a constant problem with how the state government is set up. You have administrative agencies like MSP that are supposed to be making their own policies. Yet you have AG office lawyers who they depend on representing them, who report to a completely different organization run by a different politician. So it puts the state agency in question in danger of pissing of their legal representation if they don't play nicely with them.

 

[EdHershon]

Given this new pattern, and the OAH's ability to totally disregard anything that happened at the HPRB ... what is the POINT of the HPRB? It strikes me that perhaps that's the angle with the governor. Because HE appoints the board members, and they are being totally neutered by Frosh on this.

This can be changed by Hogan by directing Pallozzi to issue permits without restrictions unless there is a reason to do so.

The burden for good and substantial has been met and a permit has been issued.

 

[EdHershon]

In summary:

Hogan doesn't care nor will he ever
MSP isn't bound by AG but it sure as hell is following AG's direction
Nothing is going to change unless via the courts
First signs suggest the HPRB decisions MSP doesn't like are going to get kicked up to OAH
Magical meme letter won't save you

The few cases that I have seen from OAH are giving me pause that they will be successful.

Unfortunately, I am unable to discuss due to attorney-client constraints.

 

[EdHershon]

These cases are nothing more than trial balloons. MSP is sending them to the administrative law judge just to see what their stance will be regarding State Police denial. Since these judges can ignore the findings and ruling from the HPRB it will basically come down to the applicant''s good and substantial reason versus the state police and completely shut out the board which is the intent of this law anyway. If these judges stand by the state police denial and they probably will, you're going to see nearly every decision by the HPRB appealed and overturned. And for those of you who had to go through a board hearing to appeal an MSP denial chances are probably pretty good that when you come up for renewal you're going to face the same action from the state police.

And this is why good legal counsel is important