MD and MSP geting Heat from the FBI and ATF

[jkray]

This is covered here, taken from the FBI NICs website. The way I am reading it is no answer from MSP is "no resolution was provided within 3 days" is the delayed response. The MSP is our POC, acting as the NICS. There should be a response within 3 business days, the way I am reading it, or the transfer can proceed, after 7 working days according to MD law. Again, this is just my OPINION.

At the bottom of the paragraph I highlighted, the last sentence states " the firearm may be lawfully transferred under federal law if a final determination
of proceed or denied is not received from the NICS." Or in our case, the MSP.

This is some interesting discussion, eh?

I get that but if you read the 2 line paragraph above what you highlighted it says "NTN will be delayed while NICS continues its research. If you do not recieve a final response from us, the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of firearm on Day/Date"

To me this means that once the FFL receives the *Delayed* response they must wait up to 3 days to receivie a FINAL response. If the FINAL response is not received within the 3 days they can then transfer the firearm.

That is all well and good if you can actually get that crucial initial response. It seems to me that MSP is not providing any status update until the full set of paperwork is returned. therefore the FFL has no date of initial response to base their 3 days off of.

This is just my (extremely) lay persons interpretation and i am in no way saying you are wrong. and yes this is very interesting stuff

I was told that after a few days (7-10) the FFL can go online to and get some application number after the MDSP have entered your app into their system (does not mean they have processed it, just entered it electronically) and put that on the form.
Once they enter that number on the form they can release the firearm - but you will have to return after the final responce from MDSP to sign off on it.

just words form the FFL

I have never heard of this before. if it is true (no offense but i don't think it is) then there is just another reason why the 50 day wait is complete bs

 

[Boom Boom]

Are they the only FFL doing it? My FFL was transferring after the 7 days, but was told by ATF during an audit that all transfers had to have a NICS number.

I believe the ATF auditor is wrong and doesn't know what he or she is talking about. Perhaps he or she has not read 4473 as carefully as he or she should.

The Brady Act (federal law) requires an NICS number (per the FBI instant background check) for an FFL to legally sell a firearm.
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics

There is no ambiguity.

 

[L0gic]

Ignoring current delays, it's every 30 days. You fill out and have your FFL submit paperwork for the next one within the 30-day window (day 23 or earlier). Your FFL holds onto the firearm until day 30 or the paperwork comes back, whichever is longer. In other words, there is no need to wait until day 30 to send in the next set of paperwork.

My FFL said they will not submit anything on my behalf until 30 days after they have given me my previous submission. So even though my last submission was 2/14, they won't file any paperwork for me until I take home that gun or provide proof of a collector's permit.

 

[mdshooter9090]

Not a word?? I guess you have a comprehension problem. I witnessed a transfer for a firearm 7 Day wait from purchase to transfer, last week.

"a" is an article used before singular words.

Are you easily impressed by 1 transfer? Again, until 100% of people are getting them on time, we devolve.

 

[Boom Boom]

My FFL said they will not submit anything on my behalf until 30 days after they have given me my previous submission. So even though my last submission was 2/14, they won't file any paperwork for me until I take home that gun or provide proof of a collector's permit.

Get another FFL then. MD law says 30 days between taking possession. A good FFL will submit the next set of paperwork on day 23 or 24.

Also, be careful not to confuse current chaos with how it traditionally works. If your FFL is only doing it now because they have no idea when submitted paperwork will come back, then it's a reasonable position for them to take in order to avoid complicated headaches. Think about how unmanageable it could get for them if they allow anybody and everybody to fill out paperwork two, three, four or more times over, with the FFL having to sit on all the regulated guns and keep track of when to submit each set (or multiple sets) of paperwork for every person.

 

[Klunatic]

"a" is an article used before singular words.

Are you easily impressed by 1 transfer? Again, until 100% of people are getting them on time, we devolve.

Pal,

You can go to whatever FFL you want. I know mine will do the transfer and more than just "a" single one. I just witnessed the 1st one, they plan on clearing out their entire backlog ASAP.

 

[L0gic]

Get another FFL then. MD law says 30 days between taking possession. A good FFL will submit the next set of paperwork on day 23 or 24.

I'm not going to sweat this part. "Hopefully" my collector's permit will be coming in soon as well then it won't matter.

 

[Tashtego]

My views on this have been evolving somewhat. I agree with the people who are saying that the federal system does not always require an NICS number, if the POC delays. In fact the federal regulations require the POC to respond right away with either a proceed, cancelled, denied, or delayed response; and if the POC does nothing (the case here), the federal NICS people are required by the regulations to consider that silence by the POC as a "proceed" after the 3-day Brady time limit has passed. So strictly speaking, it seems to me that the federal officials ought to agree that either the POC is delaying, or the POC is doing nothing, in either event causing the 3-day clock to start.

BUT, what are the negative impacts of the currently broken system? It seems to me they are less than we (and I, once) imagined. First, of course, is the 60-day delay to get your individual firearm. So that's real, though in the scheme of things it is short. Second, one might think there is the delay caused by the added 30-day time limit between buying regulated firearms. In other words, if you have to wait 60 days in between the 30-days, you will quickly run out of time before October 1 rolls around.

Here's the problem with this second injury: Md designated collector status is free and it removes the 30-day wait. If you think you are are stuck waiting to buy a second and third regulated firearm because the "not disapproved" has not come back on your first one yet and you will have to wait 30-days after that to buy the second and so on, so you won't be able to buy 10 AR-15s before October, you have overlooked your ability to buy multiple handguns and AR-15s all at once if you would only submit your designated collector application today, for free (except your cost for notarization and postage). Sure, that application will take 60 days, but that only takes you into June if you submit it now. Then you can buy as many as you want all at once, and wait only the 60-day backlog (and be grandfathered in all of them).

So it seems to me now that it would be hard to cite the 30-day wait as adding injury beyond the 60-day wait caused by the current backlog. Submit your designated collector application today, and come mid-June you can buy and submit applications for 10 or more "assault weapons" to take advantage of pre-October grandfathering.

You might even be able to buy all those guns right now, today, online, and have them sent to your FFL. Some FFLs will keep them in their storage unit for you all summer if they know you will get your collector status in June and then submit your applications for buying all those at that time. Work it out with your FFL. But at worst, you can go on your shopping spree once you get that collector approval back in June.

 

[Gordnfreman]

The Brady Act (federal law) requires an NICS number (per the FBI instant background check) for an FFL to legally sell a firearm.
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics

There is no ambiguity.

I am not being a smartass, and apologize if it seems that way, but I posted a copy of that fact-sheet in post #68. Did you read post #68? Please direct me to the "no ambiguity" part of the NICS fact-sheet.

Why are there provisions for transferring without a NICS number on form 4473 if it is unlawful to do so?

 

[L0gic]

You might even be able to buy all those guns right now, today, online, and have them sent to your FFL. Some FFLs will keep them in their storage unit for you all summer if they know you will get your collector status in June and then submit your applications for buying all those at that time. Work it out with your FFL. But at worst, you can go on your shopping spree once you get that collector approval back in June.

My FFL was nice enough to allow me to do this. Some would say they are holding a veritable arsenal in there, from .40 all the way to a 7.62.

 

[Klunatic]

My FFL was nice enough to allow me to do this. Some would say they are holding a veritable arsenal in there, from .40 all the way to a 7.62.

That's a problem for all the FFL's, no room to correctly store sold guns while waiting for paperwork. It's a wonder no one has hit one of these shops yet. I could only imagine the chaos if it did happen.

 

[smores]

I'm on board to join a suit... I am stuck in a few weird transfer situations due to the MSP's inability to do their job.



Si vis pacem para bellum

follow me @DiscipleofJMB

 

[Tashtego]

That's a problem for all the FFL's, no room to correctly store sold guns while waiting for paperwork. It's a wonder no one has hit one of these shops yet. I could only imagine the chaos if it did happen.

I can imagine this would be a burden for some FFLs. Others say they have ample space, including some of the Industry Partners here.

 

[GTOGUNNER]

I am not being a smartass, and apologize if it seems that way, but I posted a copy of that fact-sheet in post #68. Did you read post #68? Please direct me to the "no ambiguity" part of the NICS fact-sheet.

Why are there provisions for transferring without a NICS number on form 4473 if it is unlawful to do so?

You are 100% correct. No need to apologize.
This subject has been beaten to death.
"ITS UP TO THE FFL whether to do the transfer after the 7 days..."

END OF THE STORY!

 

[L0gic]

That's a problem for all the FFL's, no room to correctly store sold guns while waiting for paperwork. It's a wonder no one has hit one of these shops yet. I could only imagine the chaos if it did happen.

I'm glad to say that is the least of my concerns. My FFL has a seemingly reinforced concrete wall encasing their entire vault sealed by a very heavy gauge door. Not that a motivated offender couldn't get in there, but it would take them quite a bit of whacking/drilling to get in. Now if they brought some play-dough...

 

[mdshooter9090]

Which is the best, most perfect FFL, in the MoCo or Frederick area; the one that will have something in my hand within 7 to 8 days - and so that I can return here to brag about them?

That's a rhetorical question, it's like we're getting used to the dung.

 

[Jerry M]

File a complaint with the Office of Legislative Audits. If a State Agency is required to do something under MD law, and does not, it can be noted as a violation. Multiple finding go before the legislative committee with the possibility of funding being cut. It can have a effect on the agency.

http://www.ola.state.md.us/

Force them to comply with their own law!

 

[Klunatic]

Which is the best, most perfect FFL, in the MoCo or Frederick area; the one that will have something in my hand within 7 to 8 days - and so that I can return here to brag about them?

That's a rhetorical question, it's like we're getting used to the dung.

ENGAGE ARMAMENT, ROCKVILLE.. No Dung just guns.

 

[mdshooter9090]

ENGAGE ARMAMENT, ROCKVILLE.. No Dung just guns.

Hey, all credit to Andy and Father. 2 years ago they did get something to me in 10 days.

But they took a long time, recently, with my relative's gun.

But hey, everyone, I'll say it here and now - I will return to Engage Armament in Rockville.
They are great.

It's not their fault when O'Malley has them in a choke hold.

 

[Lou45]

Form 4473
For Marylandistan, use "the appropriate state agency"

21a....date submitted MSP
21b....NICS notice highlighted (if provided)
21c....Delayed notice what is said below "the firearms may be transferred if state law permits" etc.
21d....notice highlighted
21e....notice the word "AFTER the firearm was transferred, the following response was etc. etc. from the appropriate agency.

I am no lawyer, but it appears to me that Federal law does NOT prohibit transfer without NICS or "appropriate state transaction number".

FBI NCIS link
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet
Read around the 8th paragraph down from the top, it addresses 4473 and the 3 day rule.

It appears to me, Md law does NOT prohibit transfer without NICS as long as it has been 7 working days, and you have not purchased within 30 days, or are a collector.

It appears that if form 4473 is filled out properly, that Federal law allows transfer without NICS, and Maryland only prohibits transfer before 7 working days. THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY ON HOW I AM READING THIS!

What do you guy's think? How about the FFL's here, what do you say?

The NTN (NICS Transaction Number) must be acquired before a licensed dealer can dispose of a modern firearm (post 1898 mfg'd). This applies to the above and below quoted posts.

I read Andy's post, thats what got me started to actually read and research the actual documents.

As I see it, Federal and MD. law do allow for the transfer without a NICS number. If Maryland law prohibits the transfer without the NICS, I would like someone to please direct me to the actual written law.

This ^^^ is incorrect. A NICS Transaction Number must be acquired before a licensed dealer can dispose of a modern firearm.

Two ways that this could benefit us :
Scenario #1 - ATF removes/ suspends MSP's status as POC. Then Md based FFL could wait out the Form 77R period , and then call in their own NICS.

Scenario #2 - MSP fully complys w/ NICS procedure by promptly submiting to NICS on first day of recipt as presently reqired , and offer verification to instrested FFL , the FFL could then release after the wait period under Fed law if no *disaproved* is received.

These ^^^ are potentially a good possibility for the fix, emphasis placed on scenario #1.

Are they the only FFL doing it? My FFL was transferring after the 7 days, but was told by ATF during an audit that all transfers had to have a NICS number.

I believe the ATF auditor is wrong and doesn't know what he or she is talking about. Perhaps he or she has not read 4473 as carefully as he or she should. I am going to go over all this with my FFL this evening after they get all their deliveries today.

The ATF inspector is correct.

I get that but if you read the 2 line paragraph above what you highlighted it says "NTN will be delayed while NICS continues its research. If you do not recieve a final response from us, the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of firearm on Day/Date"

To me this means that once the FFL receives the *Delayed* response they must wait up to 3 days to receivie a FINAL response. If the FINAL response is not received within the 3 days they can then transfer the firearm.

That is all well and good if you can actually get that crucial initial response. It seems to me that MSP is not providing any status update until the full set of paperwork is returned. therefore the FFL has no date of initial response to base their 3 days off of.

This ^^^ is correct but must also be aware to include the MD waiting period too.

The Brady Act (federal law) requires an NICS number (per the FBI instant background check) for an FFL to legally sell a firearm.

Correct, but a slight fix must be inserted, after the word sell add (dispose).

I am not being a smartass, and apologize if it seems that way, but I posted a copy of that fact-sheet in post #68. Did you read post #68? Please direct me to the "no ambiguity" part of the NICS fact-sheet.

Why are there provisions for transferring without a NICS number on form 4473 if it is unlawful to do so?

Bear in mind, the Federal Form 4473 is just that, FEDERAL, as it is used in all 50 States. There are some States that don't require a NICS Transaction Number for a licensed dealer of that State to dispose a modern firearm to the recipient (legal purchaser) under certain conditions if any one of those conditions apply. One of the most common conditions is the legal recipient (purchaser) has a current State issued carry permit of their State of residence in which State the transaction is being conducted with a licensed dealer of the same State. In this case, the current valid State issued carry permit can legally be utilized in lieu of the NICS Transaction Number. Maryland was like this during the first three years upon implementation of the National Instant Check System.