MD and MSP geting Heat from the FBI and ATF

[Gordnfreman]

Not BS, comes directly from several FFL's. MSP is on the hot seat and may soon not be the point of contact for NCIS number. ATF has also indicated that it is legal to transfer a firearm after 7 days without NCIS# provided you can prove you submitted the request to the proper agency (MSP in our case) and have not received a response in the 7 days. This would be a fax confirmation of the request for NCIS number to the MSP.

7 day wait is Maryland. ATF regulations are clearly stated on ATF Form 4473

ATF Form 4473, page 2, section 21a asks for the date submitted to "appropriate state agency". 21b... asks for NICS, then in parentheses it asks (IF PROVIDED)

If NICS is not provided, thats covered on page 2, section 21d...4th box down- "No resolution was provided within 3 days". It covers NICS or "the appropriate state agency."

Section 21e says "AFTER the firearm was transferred, the following response was received from NICS or the appropriate state agency on__________(date) The key word here is AFTER

I can't find anywhere on 4473 or Maryland statutes that says it is unlawful to transfer without a NICS number. If I am wrong here and any of you guy's know what federal or state law prohibits the transfer without the NICS, please direct me to it.

 

[JohnnyE]

I wounder if the media would cover guys with picket signs walking around the pikesvile MSP barracks where they don't, but are supposed to process the background checks

The Veteran's Administration has 1 million vets backlogged in their system, if they only rate the coverage they're getting (not much) what chance would we have? I ain't holding my breath.

 

[jkray]

I read Andy's post, thats what got me started to actually read and research the actual documents.

As I see it, Federal and MD. law do allow for the transfer without a NICS number. If Maryland law prohibits the transfer without the NICS, I would like someone to please direct me to the actual written law.

If Federal and State law allows for the transfer without the NICS, why can't we all receive our guns?

The way I read the form is that the 3 days doesn't start until the initial reasponse comes back (as 21d says "if initial responsewas delayed....no resolution was provided within 3 days). So until the FFL gets some sort of response, be it proceed/delayed/denied they can't do anything. Now with that said since MSP is the POC and they are not sending ANYTHING back until they send the 77r the FFL has no recourse to release the firearm in 7 days.

This is just the way I interpret the form and is in no way gospel but if I were an FFL i would not be releaseing anythign until i got the paperwork back becuase of the above

 

[nobis1]

The MD Public Safety Article says nothing about NCIS checks. However, the law states that "the Secretary shall conduct an investigation promptly to determine the truth or falsity of the information supplied and statements made in the firearm application." Md. Code Ann., Public Safety 5-121(a).

Additionally, Md. Code Ann., Public Safety 5-122(b)(1) states that "(i)f the Secretary disapproves a firearm application, the Secretary shall notify the prospective seller, lessor, or transferor in writing of the disapproval within 7 days after the date that the executed firearm application is forwarded to the Secretary by certified mail or facsimile machine."

So, the law requires that MSP act "promptly" when investigating backgrounds, and the law states that they "shall" disapprove in writing within 7 days of receipt. Notice the word "shall" is used in 5-122(b)(1), that means must. So, a good argument exists that on day 8 they cannot disapprove any longer.

The issue still exists; however, that by the time you get your day in court, the issue will be moot.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Two ways that this could benefit us :
Scenario #1 - ATF removes/ suspends MSP's status as POC. Then Md based FFL could wait out the Form 77R period , and then call in their own NICS.

Scenario #2 - MSP fully complys w/ NICS procedure by promptly submiting to NICS on first day of recipt as presently reqired , and offer verification to instrested FFL , the FFL could then release after the wait period under Fed law if no *disaproved* is received.

 

[Independence]

This is the most interesting thread I've read in a while.

I would have to say following the letter of the law is the best course. If the MSP calls you and says "do this," if it's not in the written law, it holds no water.

I hope the ATF strips the MSP of their power, this is really messing with businesses who have to sit on stock that they have already sold to wait for someone to do their job.

 

[Klunatic]

Wow, someone wants me to do more work?

"I want my purchased product."

"Ok, Prove it!"

This is laughable, if not so stupid and sick.

And in all due respect I'm not attacking you but the notion of rumors and worse the burden of proof to make a purchase.

FFL purchase dialog:

"can I get permission to Video tape this hand gun purchase, so that in 7 days I can have proof that the MSP is delinquent?"

Sure.

"Ok, sign this release form since in MD it illegal with out written consent, shall we get it notarized?"

Well you get the point. It's just sick when the ATF and FBI have to intervene between a People and some Public Officials - if they even do it.

@@@@@@@

Maybe FBI can investigate Jason Mattera being chased down the street by Bloomberg's guards for simply asking a question.(on YouTube) It's from things like this that people can start to lose confidence in a honest system that is not Partisan.

You don't have to do "any work". The Fax confirmation is generated by the FFL when they send in your paperwork to MSP. That is the proof of submission for the FFL. You as the buyer do not need any proof. The FFL can "LEGALLY" transfer the firearm if they don't receive a response from the authorized agency (MSP) after 7 days.

Not a rumor, actually happening, I have witnessed it being done myself.

 

[Gordnfreman]

The way I read the form is that the 3 days doesn't start until the initial reasponse comes back (as 21d says "if initial responsewas delayed....no resolution was provided within 3 days). So until the FFL gets some sort of response, be it proceed/delayed/denied they can't do anything. Now with that said since MSP is the POC and they are not sending ANYTHING back until they send the 77r the FFL has no recourse to release the firearm in 7 days.

This is just the way I interpret the form and is in no way gospel but if I were an FFL i would not be releaseing anythign until i got the paperwork back becuase of the above

This is covered here, taken from the FBI NICs website. The way I am reading it is no answer from MSP is "no resolution was provided within 3 days" is the delayed response. The MSP is our POC, acting as the NICS. There should be a response within 3 business days, the way I am reading it, or the transfer can proceed, after 7 working days according to MD law. Again, this is just my OPINION.

At the bottom of the paragraph I highlighted, the last sentence states " the firearm may be lawfully transferred under federal law if a final determination
of proceed or denied is not received from the NICS." Or in our case, the MSP.

This is some interesting discussion, eh?

 

[L0gic]

This is covered here, taken from the FBI NICs website. The way I am reading it is no answer from MSP is "no resolution was provided within 3 days" is the delayed response. The MSP is our POC, acting as the NICS. There should be a response within 3 business days, the way I am reading it, or the transfer can proceed, after 7 working days according to MD law. Again, this is just my OPINION.

At the bottom of the paragraph I highlighted, the last sentence states " the firearm may be lawfully transferred under federal law if a final determination
of proceed or denied is not received from the NICS." Or in our case, the MSP.

This is some interesting discussion, eh?

Yep. Also says its within the FFL's discretion which is why we have some IP FFL's doing that for repeat customers and others (Non-IP) saying take a hike, come back when MSP says I can give it to you.

 

[kohburn]

The way I read the form is that the 3 days doesn't start until the initial reasponse comes back (as 21d says "if initial responsewas delayed....no resolution was provided within 3 days). So until the FFL gets some sort of response, be it proceed/delayed/denied they can't do anything. Now with that said since MSP is the POC and they are not sending ANYTHING back until they send the 77r the FFL has no recourse to release the firearm in 7 days.

I was told that after a few days (7-10) the FFL can go online to and get some application number after the MDSP have entered your app into their system (does not mean they have processed it, just entered it electronically) and put that on the form.
Once they enter that number on the form they can release the firearm - but you will have to return after the final responce from MDSP to sign off on it.

just words form the FFL

 

[Trek4Ward]

I believe there is some type of insurance issue involved in the process as well. My FFL had told me early on that larger FFL's and gun stores possess some level of liability insurance that would cover them in the event a client picks up a gun prior to full "not disapproval" and commits a crime. Smaller private FFL do not carry this insurance so are basically waiting this out to cover themselves. I'm sure the MSP made a point of reminding them all of this. May all be BS, but it sounded logical.

 

[bmelton]

I was told that after a few days (7-10) the FFL can go online to and get some application number after the MDSP have entered your app into their system (does not mean they have processed it, just entered it electronically) and put that on the form.
Once they enter that number on the form they can release the firearm - but you will have to return after the final responce from MDSP to sign off on it.

just words form the FFL

How does that affect the 'one gun a month' law? Is it from when you pick the gun up (as I've been told) or when the paperwork comes back?

If the latter, I'll just start transacting all my business at Engage. If the former, I probably still will just because they've been 2A champions throughout all of this.

 

[mdshooter9090]

You don't have to do "any work". The Fax confirmation is generated by the FFL when they send in your paperwork to MSP. That is the proof of submission for the FFL. You as the buyer do not need any proof. The FFL can "LEGALLY" transfer the firearm if they don't receive a response from the authorized agency (MSP) after 7 days.

Not a rumor, actually happening, I have witnessed it being done myself.

Until MSP is no longer POC, ...

BS

I'm not in the queue now, but I bet if I were it'd take me 50 days; and what would you have to say?

Not a word, not a word ...

But thanks for the exchange.

 

[Klunatic]

How does that affect the 'one gun a month' law? Is it from when you pick the gun up (as I've been told) or when the paperwork comes back?

If the latter, I'll just start transacting all my business at Engage. If the former, I probably still will just because they've been 2A champions throughout all of this.

30 days from purchase, not pickup.

 

[Abacab]

This thread just proves the entire Maryland system is a clusterfark and we need straight NICS. I know I know, just as likely as O'Malley announcing support for shall issue.

 

[Boom Boom]

I don't know nearly enough to debate this a devil's advocate, but technically you were able to purchase it, just not take it home the day you purchased it.

You've paid for it that point. Nothing more. Until you have possession, it's not a completed purchase, regardless of whether MSP takes seven days, two to three months, or multiple years before responding with "Not Disapproved". A purchase is a binding contract. At some point (ignoring exactly how long for now), the contract is breached and you can sue MSP and MD for specific performance, in addition to suing for being denied your 2A natural right.

 

[Klunatic]

Until MSP is no longer POC, ...

BS

I'm not in the queue now, but I bet if I were it'd take me 50 days; and what would you have to say?

Not a word, not a word ...

But thanks for the exchange.

Not a word?? I guess you have a comprehension problem. I witnessed a transfer for a firearm 7 Day wait from purchase to transfer, last week.

 

[Arcamm]

This is what irritates me the most. Under Maryland law, I should be able to purchase a regulated firearm every 37 or 38 days. Under normal circumstances, these delays because of high volume could be written off as an inconvenience of the situation.
But now we have a hard deadline that will mean what we can buy now will end. Now any delay in the 37/38 day buy opportunity has a real consequence in our right to buy these firearms. Instead of being able to purchase 4 or 5 before the new law kicks in, we would be lucky to purchase 1 or 2 thru no fault of our own.

Maybe we could get a judge to issue a stay to stop the new law going into effect until the MSP gets the personnel in place to process purchases in the 7 day period consistently.

I bet MOM would fix the problem overnight!

 

[Boom Boom]

Ignoring current delays, it's every 30 days. You fill out and have your FFL submit paperwork for the next one within the 30-day window (day 23 or earlier). Your FFL holds onto the firearm until day 30 or the paperwork comes back, whichever is longer. In other words, there is no need to wait until day 30 to send in the next set of paperwork.

 

[Gordnfreman]

How does that affect the 'one gun a month' law? Is it from when you pick the gun up (as I've been told) or when the paperwork comes back?

If the latter, I'll just start transacting all my business at Engage. If the former, I probably still will just because they've been 2A champions throughout all of this.

Are they the only FFL doing it? My FFL was transferring after the 7 days, but was told by ATF during an audit that all transfers had to have a NICS number.

I believe the ATF auditor is wrong and doesn't know what he or she is talking about. Perhaps he or she has not read 4473 as carefully as he or she should. I am going to go over all this with my FFL this evening after they get all their deliveries today.

I have a CZ Custom Pro Tek II that I have waited 7 weeks to be built and a Kel Tek PMR-30 (without mags) arriving today.

I am waiting to hear back from some other FFL's about transferring after 7 day's. I am a MD collector and have a great relationship with my FFL. I have transferred over 20 with them in the last year.

If my FFL is not comfortable with transferring after the 7 days when we meet tonight, they will have no problem vouching for me and shipping to another FFL who is willing to transfer after the 7 day wait.