Maryland Shall Issue Files Suit Against the Maryland State Police

[Mr H]

Wonder what's going to happen in September? Ya think a bunch of people are going to have a holy crap! moment and purchase after Labor Day?

I'd put money on it.

Of course, I'd prefer it to be with an on-time release dealer, but still........

 

[PJDiesel]

Wonder what's going to happen in September? Ya think a bunch of people are going to have a holy crap! moment and purchase after Labor Day?

Sounds as if they'll be over staffed come November. What will become of all these new hires?

 

[mdram]

Sounds as if they'll be over staffed come November. What will become of all these new hires?

gov employees
so they will play tetris and surf the web

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Sounds as if they'll be over staffed come November. What will become of all these new hires?

November? Heck they're almost up to 4 months now. Then all those holidays in the Fall. I predict the big push shoppers in September will see theirs come back in 2014.

Then there's adding HQL...

What I wonder is if they can meet their deadline after Oct 1 for completing those on time. Don't the LiveScan results expire in 30 days and they have the same amount of time in SB281 to get those completed. Remember those include a BG check. This is going to get interesting then...

 

[Mark75H]

It's probably a temporary situation.

Temporary - since March

 

[smokey]

Let's look at the directions for NICS: starting on Page 5 and finishing on page 6.

Question(s) 21, 22, 23, NICS BACKGROUND CHECKS: 18 U.S.C. § 922(t) requires that prior to transferring any firearm to an unlicensed person, a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer must first contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). NICS will advise the licensee whether the system finds any information that the purchaser is prohibited by law from possessing or receiving a firearm. For purposes of this form, contacts to NICS include contacts to State agencies designated to conduct NICS checks for the Federal Government. WARNING: Any seller who transfers a firearm to any person they know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm violates the law, even if the seller has complied with the background check requirements of the Brady law.
After the buyer has completed Section A of the form and the licensee has completed questions 18-20, and before transferring the firearm, the licensee must contact NICS (read below for NICS check exceptions.) However, the licensee should NOT contact NICS and should stop the transaction if: the
buyer answers “no” to question 11.a.; the buyer answers “yes” to any question in 11.b.-11.l., unless the buyer only has answered “yes” to question 11.l. and also answers “yes” to question 12; or the buyer is unable to provide the documentation required by question 20.a, b, or c.
At the time that NICS is contacted, the licensee must record in question 21.a- c: the date of contact, the NICS (or State) transaction number, and the initial response provided by NICS or the State. The licensee may record the Missing Disposition Information (MDI) date in 21.c. that NICS provides for delayed transactions (States do not provide this number). If the licensee receives a “delayed” response, before transferring the firearm, the licensee must record in question 21.d. any response later provided by NICS or the State or that no resolution was provided within 3 business days. If the licensee receives a response from NICS or the State after the firearm has been transferred, he or she must record this information in question 21.e. Note: States acting as points of contact for NICS checks may use terms other than “proceed,” “delayed,” “cancelled,” or “denied.” In such cases, the licensee should check the box that corresponds to the State’s response. Some States may not provide a transaction number for denials. However, if a firearm is transferred within the three business day period, a transaction number is required.
NICS Responses: If NICS provides a “proceed” response, the transaction may proceed. If NICS provides a “cancelled” response, the seller is prohibited from transferring the firearm to the buyer. If NICS provides a “denied” response, the seller is prohibited from transferring the firearm to the buyer. If NICS provides a “delayed” response, the seller is prohibited from transferring the firearm unless 3 business days have elapsed and, before the transfer, NICS or the State has not advised the seller that the buyer’s receipt or possession of the firearm would be in violation of law. (See 27 CFR § 478.102(a) for an example of how to calculate 3 business days.) If NICS provides a “delayed” response, NICS also will provide a Missing Disposition Informa- tion (MDI) date that calculates the 3 business days and reflects when the firearm(s) can be transferred under Federal law. States may not provide an MDI date. Please note State law may impose a waiting period on transferring firearms

hi-lighted in red and bolded:
This doesn't happen in md. In PICS, the ntn # is provided instantly....in md, the nics check isn't even started until just before the disposition is completed and faxed back. With NICS being good for 30 days, if this was not the case, dealers that released paperwork that was over 30 days old from the point of contact with MSP would have to do another 4473 and NICS check with the msp nics re-check form. An example was a transaction today that happened.

The State police faxed back a disposition for a purchase from march for a customer on 7-9-13, with a NICS check dated 6-13-13. The NICS was initially delayed, but the MSP didn't fax it to us till 7-9-13. The customer came in today, but since the NICS was completed on 6-13-13, it was expired and a new NICS check had to be done on a new 4473, using the NICS re-check form(that usually gets a NICS from the MSP in a matter of hours). The feds gave guidance that the 4473 was valid for 30 days from the time the NICS check was made...or the date in 20.a. If the feds are considering 6-13-13 the date of the NICS check for this transaction initiated back in march, then if it was released on the 8th day, the feds would consider it released without the completion of a NICS check.

I'm thinking the early release is going to get a lot of dealers boned here coming up based on the guidance federal folks are giving in filling out the 4473 now.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Temporary - since March

Lol, yep.

I figure they had about 6 people working apps before. No way they were gonna keep up. We shall see if my theory holds next month... Again, this brief period of time I am giving them a pass, training new people has a whole lotta problems, plus I heard they have cooling issues. Maybe we should offer to fan them as they work

 

[Scarab]

The MSP wait time is a total non-issue for me because I will only buy from FFLs that release as per the Law in 8 days.

Scarab

 

[JustCuz]

Also on the 4473 is the statement that, for the purpose of the regulations you described, contacting the POC is the same as contacting NICS. No response from POC after 7 days, AND no response from NICS after 3 full business days passes the test. Legal to release without so much as an NTN because it was never given.

I am really surprised (well, considering the agenda, not really), that the press isn't all over this: The momentous Maryland Bill, which was signed into law by our glorious governor in order to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, in reality CAUSED the state's own laws, coupled with its failure to perform as POC -- a role that it took on voluntarily and not in full compliance with the national NICS system -- to allow firearms sold by FFLs to be legally purchased by and released to individuals without the completion of a background check for the first time in Maryland's history since the Brady Bill was enacted.

I mean, if that's not a newsworthy piece of irony, I've never seen one.

hi-lighted in red and bolded:
This doesn't happen in md. In PICS, the ntn # is provided instantly....in md, the nics check isn't even started until just before the disposition is completed and faxed back. With NICS being good for 30 days, if this was not the case, dealers that released paperwork that was over 30 days old from the point of contact with MSP would have to do another 4473 and NICS check with the msp nics re-check form. An example was a transaction today that happened.

The State police faxed back a disposition for a purchase from march for a customer on 7-9-13, with a NICS check dated 6-13-13. The NICS was initially delayed, but the MSP didn't fax it to us till 7-9-13. The customer came in today, but since the NICS was completed on 6-13-13, it was expired and a new NICS check had to be done on a new 4473, using the NICS re-check form(that usually gets a NICS from the MSP in a matter of hours). The feds gave guidance that the 4473 was valid for 30 days from the time the NICS check was made...or the date in 20.a. If the feds are considering 6-13-13 the date of the NICS check for this transaction initiated back in march, then if it was released on the 8th day, the feds would consider it released without the completion of a NICS check.

I'm thinking the early release is going to get a lot of dealers boned here coming up based on the guidance federal folks are giving in filling out the 4473 now.

 

[Ab_Normal]

Temporary - since March

Patience grasshopper.

Maybe we should protest and beat up some people. It gets others what they want in other cases.

 

[GTOGUNNER]

hi-lighted in red and bolded:
This doesn't happen in md. In PICS, the ntn # is provided instantly....in md, the nics check isn't even started until just before the disposition is completed and faxed back. With NICS being good for 30 days, if this was not the case, dealers that released paperwork that was over 30 days old from the point of contact with MSP would have to do another 4473 and NICS check with the msp nics re-check form. An example was a transaction today that happened.

The State police faxed back a disposition for a purchase from march for a customer on 7-9-13, with a NICS check dated 6-13-13. The NICS was initially delayed, but the MSP didn't fax it to us till 7-9-13. The customer came in today, but since the NICS was completed on 6-13-13, it was expired and a new NICS check had to be done on a new 4473, using the NICS re-check form(that usually gets a NICS from the MSP in a matter of hours). The feds gave guidance that the 4473 was valid for 30 days from the time the NICS check was made...or the date in 20.a. If the feds are considering 6-13-13 the date of the NICS check for this transaction initiated back in march, then if it was released on the 8th day, the feds would consider it released without the completion of a NICS check.

I'm thinking the early release is going to get a lot of dealers boned here coming up based on the guidance federal folks are giving in filling out the 4473 now.

So wrong.

 

[dblas]

hi-lighted in red and bolded:
This doesn't happen in md. In PICS, the ntn # is provided instantly....in md, the nics check isn't even started until just before the disposition is completed and faxed back. With NICS being good for 30 days, if this was not the case, dealers that released paperwork that was over 30 days old from the point of contact with MSP would have to do another 4473 and NICS check with the msp nics re-check form. An example was a transaction today that happened.

The State police faxed back a disposition for a purchase from march for a customer on 7-9-13, with a NICS check dated 6-13-13. The NICS was initially delayed, but the MSP didn't fax it to us till 7-9-13. The customer came in today, but since the NICS was completed on 6-13-13, it was expired and a new NICS check had to be done on a new 4473, using the NICS re-check form(that usually gets a NICS from the MSP in a matter of hours). The feds gave guidance that the 4473 was valid for 30 days from the time the NICS check was made...or the date in 20.a. If the feds are considering 6-13-13 the date of the NICS check for this transaction initiated back in march, then if it was released on the 8th day, the feds would consider it released without the completion of a NICS check.

I'm thinking the early release is going to get a lot of dealers boned here coming up based on the guidance federal folks are giving in filling out the 4473 now.

FFL's may contact NICS in two manners;

Directly, if aloud by state regulation.

Through the state POC (in this case MSP) per state requirements.

The FBI treats both the same, as the initiation of a NICS check by the FFL, which is the standard for all NICS checks nationwide.

The clock does not start when MSP starts the check, it starts when the FFL starts the check (submitting the 77R), thus the requirement of "no response after 3 days" is met (7-days in MD), 7 business days after the 77R is submitted.

The 8th business day transfers are thus legal and not against the law (federal or otherwise), and no FFL license is in jeopardy.

 

[smokey]

FFL's may contact NICS in two manners;

Directly, if aloud by state regulation.

Through the state POC (in this case MSP) per state requirements.

The FBI treats both the same, as the initiation of a NICS check by the FFL, which is the standard for all NICS checks nationwide.

The clock does not start when MSP starts the check, it starts when the FFL starts the check (submitting the 77R), thus the requirement of "no response after 3 days" is met (7-days in MD), 7 business days after the 77R is submitted.

The 8th business day transfers are thus legal and not against the law (federal or otherwise), and no FFL license is in jeopardy.

If NICS expires after 30 days, then what happens with the guns released after 30 days, but without a MSP disposition with the NICS check and date?

oh, and the upcoming sh!tstorm...if people buy a gun now and the wait for a disposition goes past oct 1...do they just sign twice(77r2 & 4473) and take it with them, or is anything else going to come in to play, such as the mag restriction.

 

[mdram]

The 8th business day transfers are thus legal and not against the law (federal or otherwise), and no FFL license is in jeopardy.

true, but I think the dealers not releasing are more worried about any possible civil liability for releasing without a 'nd'. at least with an 'nd' the can claim the state said it was ok.

 

[Ab_Normal]

true, but I think the dealers not releasing are more worried about any possible civil liability for releasing without a 'nd'. at least with an 'nd' the can claim the state said it was ok.

The state is required by law to provide a "Disapproved" within 7 days. So after 7 days it is by default "Not Disapproved".

 

[L0gic]

true, but I think the dealers not releasing are more worried about any possible civil liability for releasing without a 'nd'. at least with an 'nd' the can claim the state said it was ok.

Agreed, but what about the dealers who are holding several applications for one person across several different dates and refuse to release them all to a designated collector once the first ND comes back?

 

[smokey]

Agreed, but what about the dealers who are holding several applications for one person across several different dates and refuse to release them all to a designated collector once the first ND comes back?

Each one has its individual 4473 for the date the transaction was initiated. One NICS check won't work for all the rest of them. They're holding the rest because they don't want to be boned on federal paperwork.

Has any ffl that has released on the 8th day been audited by the feds yet? If they're audited and everything comes back hunky dory, it may make others that are holding out feel more comfortable releasing. I really wish things were pressed until POC was released by the state and given back to the ffl's, then this wouldn't be an issue at all.

 

[mdram]

The state is required by law to provide a "Disapproved" within 7 days. So after 7 days it is by default "Not Disapproved".

maybe, but there are disapproved coming after 7 days

 

[Tyeraxus]

maybe, but there are disapproved coming after 7 days

(IANAL) Isn't that the state's problem? They're required to provide the "Disapproved" within 7 days. If they fail to do so, it's their fault for not having done so, and therefore their responsibility to recover the firearm from the "disapproved" person, right?

 

[GTOGUNNER]

(IANAL) Isn't that the state's problem? They're required to provide the "Disapproved" within 7 days. If they fail to do so, it's their fault for not having done so, and therefore their responsibility to recover the firearm from the "disapproved" person, right?

EXACTLY.

And the FFL is out of the loop, unless they call the buyer and ask them to return the firearm... Which would be stupid if your going to be charged an outrageous restocking fee. In that case, take it to a pawn shop....