Ideas for self-defense shotgun loads?

[Twanger]

Thanks for all of the thoughts and links gents!

 

[smokey]

Thanks for all of the thoughts and links gents!

No prob. We all learned from somewhere. It's only right to try to pass along acquired knowledge.

 

[outrider58]

I used to hear 'tales' of guys loading stacks of dimes in 20 ga. Always sounded nasty to me. Never had the nerve to try myself.

 

[Sirex]

Just out of curiosity, what would be a good defense load for a .410? I bought a Mossberg 500 in .410 for my wife while ago since she is a little afraid of the 12G Mossberg. I bought some Winchester 00 buck that has 3 pellets, and some Winchester PDX and lastly some Hornady Critical Defense. My understanding is the PDX and Hornady were designed for the slug to engage the rifling in a Judge or Governor and since the Mossberg is smooth bore I am unsure how they will do. I plan to take it to the range and try them out when it warms up, but wondering if anyone has tried anything. I was going to get her a 20G, but there just doesn't seem to be any good defensive 20G ammo.

 

[Vile Shadow]

No prob. We all learned from somewhere. It's only right to try to pass along acquired knowledge.

Coming from you, that means a lot.

 

[lsw]

Some years ago I used to see #4 buck recommended for HD, 27 pellets in a standard 2.75" load. I still have several boxes of it. What's the consensus on $4 nowadays, not effective? I think at a typical room-length distance, the pellets would all hit pretty close together anyway.

 

[SCARCQB]

00 buckshots and 1oz rifled slugs.

If that does not work. I will bludgeon that perp with an empty shotgun. Then shoot him with a pistol or an AR. Full retard!!!!!

 

[fabsroman]

Unfortunately bad guys are tougher than drywall, so any load worth shooting at a threat will also go through drywall. It's been discussed countless times, along with bird shot being for birds, just won't reliably stop a threat unless they run away as shown in the OP's story. Over-penetration is blown out of proportion in the vast majority of cases IMO, and there are few if any circumstances where you would want to handicap your defensive choices in fear of it. It does pay to know your target and what is beyond it, but you stand a good chance of throwing several rounds with most being clear misses. It's best to plan a place to dig in, and an area relatively safe to fire twards in advance, and use something effective and controllable, so you will probably have to fire fewer rounds.

Much safer IMO to send a slug or two than dump a mag of 22s or birdshot. In most instances where there are lots of people only a wall or two away, like an apartment, an AR in 5.56 with plain FMJ is preferable to most any shotgun or handgun load. Small fast bullets hit and break up soon after impact, they are effective when all that happens inside a badguy's chest, but the small fragments are relatively safe after going through a couple layers of drywall. For me in my house, I opt for managed recoil slugs or 7.62X39 from a long gun, or my CCW handgun if I can't get to one.

How does a FMJ breakup into small little fragments? The entire reason for FMJ is so the bullet does not break up and it passes through the target intact. Now, a 5.56 or .223 with varmint bullets in it is a completely different thing. Those bullets vaporize on a groundhog or prairie dog and splatter the varmint all over the place. Most are made with thin walled copper and a rubber tip that drives into the bullet. The rubber tip and thin copper walls results in the fast fragmentation of the bullet.

There are some "gorey" varmint videos out there of these bullets turning the varmints inside out and into mush. So much kinetic energy is deposited into such a small target that the varmint is literally flung up into the air and turned inside out. I'd post links to the videos, but some people might lose their lunch since it isn't quite the same effect as shooting at paper.

 

[alucard0822]

How does a FMJ breakup into small little fragments? The entire reason for FMJ is so the bullet does not break up and it passes through the target intact. Now, a 5.56 or .223 with varmint bullets in it is a completely different thing. Those bullets vaporize on a groundhog or prairie dog and splatter the varmint all over the place. Most are made with thin walled copper and a rubber tip that drives into the bullet. The rubber tip and thin copper walls results in the fast fragmentation of the bullet.

There are some "gorey" varmint videos out there of these bullets turning the varmints inside out and into mush. So much kinetic energy is deposited into such a small target that the varmint is literally flung up into the air and turned inside out. I'd post links to the videos, but some people might lose their lunch since it isn't quite the same effect as shooting at paper.

That is Exactly how 5.56 was designed, thin jacket, weak point at the cannelure to fragment after yawing, a kinda sorta loophole in the obsolete Hague convention "FMJ" ammo guidelines. It won't fragment as reliably as some of the varmint bullets, especially out of shorter barrels, and at longer distances, if it fails to fragment it relies on yawing to damage tissue like most every other FMJ produced. M193 is lead core/copper jacket, and at 55gr is a bit faster than 62gr, so it should have the best chance to fragment. M855 and euro SS109 at 62gr with a steel pellet in the core to enhance penetration, as the bullet breaks up the steel pellet will penetrate deep, it was designed to enhance hard barrier penetration, but retain a superior wounding mechanism to true AP. The German AB22 bullet is very similar to M193's concept of a thin jacket and weak cannelure, but it's 7.62 nato, so terminal ballistics are exaggerated to the stuff of gun nerd legend.

 

[Mr.Blue]

Some years ago I used to see #4 buck recommended for HD, 27 pellets in a standard 2.75" load. I still have several boxes of it. What's the consensus on $4 nowadays, not effective? I think at a typical room-length distance, the pellets would all hit pretty close together anyway.

I prefer 00, but I've heard very good things about #4. I've heard it mentioned by many "experts" as an ideal HD load.

 

[Traveler]

Just out of curiosity, what would be a good defense load for a .410?

A 20 Gauge

 

[Sirex]

A 20 Gauge

My first shotgun WAS a 20G. Sold it because there wasn't any good HD ammo. I think even the 20G would be much for her. The 410 seems just about right and there seems to be more HD ammo for it.

 

[Traveler]

410 is not suitable for home defense. It is as bad as bird shot.

.410 Gauge

None of the above really applies in this weak caliber. The .410 is only a half-way decent manstopper with slugs. Choose the Federal Classic (F412RS) or Winchester Super-X (X41RS5) 1/5 ounce (88 grain) hollowpoint slugs. Never use birdshot. There are some odd buckshot loads for the .410 (with three 000 pellets) and I advise you to ignore them. Lose the .410 and buy a 20 gauge pump shotgun.

20 Gauge

The 20 is an excellent self-defense caliber, particularly for those who dislike the recoil of the 12 gauge. Choose the 20 gauge 3" shell Federal Classic #2 buckshot (F207-2-5PK) with 18 pellets, or the Winchester Double XX Magnum #3 with 24 pellets (X203C3B). If your gun cannot accept 3" shells, choose the Remington #3 with 20 pellets (SP20BK5PK-3). All of these loads provide definitive short-range stopping power.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

 

[Pinecone]

Some years ago I used to see #4 buck recommended for HD, 27 pellets in a standard 2.75" load. I still have several boxes of it. What's the consensus on $4 nowadays, not effective? I think at a typical room-length distance, the pellets would all hit pretty close together anyway.

The issue is this time of year, with a heavy coat, #4 Buck just doesn't penetrate enough.

But one could alternate #4 and #1 or #00 or Slugs.

 

[Pinecone]

FMJ is not designed to not break up, but to not EXPAND. Breaking up is not expanding.

Just like the US military is using 5.56 ammo loaded with 77 grain Sierra Mach Kings. They are OTM (Open Tip Match) bullets. The open tip is NOT a hollow point for expanding, but a side effect of the manufacturing process. So some Pentagon lawyer type figured out they were perfectly legal under the Geneva Convention.

 

[smokey]

FMJ is not designed to not break up, but to not EXPAND. Breaking up is not expanding.

Just like the US military is using 5.56 ammo loaded with 77 grain Sierra Mach Kings. They are OTM (Open Tip Match) bullets. The open tip is NOT a hollow point for expanding, but a side effect of the manufacturing process. So some Pentagon lawyer type figured out they were perfectly legal under the Geneva Convention.

You mean the hague convention. Also, the m193 55 gr load is precisely designed to tumble and break at the cannelure.....like dis....


Of course for inside home stuff, 193 won't break up going through walls like a polymer-tipped bullet of some kind....observe


Some people actually prefer this, as they value barrier penetration. A common mistake people of all training levels do is use walls as cover instead of concealment, and it may benefit you to be able to go through that wall to take out a threat. Others want to reduce the odds of a stray hitting their neighbors/kids and having enough ass left to do a lot of damage, so they lean towards bullet designs that break up more readily at the expense of penetration.

I do have a boner for that mk262 loading though. When you bump up the mass of the bullet to 77gr, you've substantially increased the amount of fragments available to rip/tear into the walls of the temporary cavity to produce a larger permanent cavity. It also more readily breaks apart in carbine-length barrels, whereas the m193 load will be down around 3,000fps and will be hit or miss whether it will break at the cannelure or not. If it doesn't it will still tumble, and will likely squirt lead out the base...but it won't deliver it's full potential. The 262 load is one of those that favors barrier penetration though...

 

[Sirex]

410 is not suitable for home defense. It is as bad as bird shot.



http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

It's better than the alternative, nothing. She doesn't want anything to do with the big scary 12G.

 

[basscat]

Many of deer have been taken with a 410. If it was no good for self defense then why all the hype with the Governer and Judge? If she is comfortable with a 410 then go for it. A nice Mossberg pump or aquire a Saiga. 3" 410 with ooo buck should be adequate

 

[fabsroman]

Many of deer have been taken with a 410. If it was no good for self defense then why all the hype with the Governer and Judge? If she is comfortable with a 410 then go for it. A nice Mossberg pump or aquire a Saiga. 3" 410 with ooo buck should be adequate

If the deer could shoot back, I doubt you would be using a .410 on them. Deer have been killed with .22lr too. That isn't the best HD round either.

 

[fabsroman]

It's better than the alternative, nothing. She doesn't want anything to do with the big scary 12G.

Anything is better than nothing. With that said, have you thought about a rifle in .223? If not an AR, then maybe a Ruger Mini-14. The recoil from .223 is rather mild.