Ideas for self-defense shotgun loads?

[platoonDaddy]

The go to guru for any defensive load is Doc Roberts

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/

 

[Pinecone]

The problem with this account is that it is ONE instance. There are also a number of instances where solid hits with bird shot did NOT stop the attacker.

And if it is you and your family versus the perp, do you want the "It might work great" or the "It WILL work great" approach?

 

[Vile Shadow]

The problem with this account is that it is ONE instance. There are also a number of instances where solid hits with bird shot did NOT stop the attacker.

And if it is you and your family versus the perp, do you want the "It might work great" or the "It WILL work great" approach?

I'll take "It WILL work great", thank you.

 

[SWO Daddy]

I'm of the opinion that in the OP's scenario the 8 1/2's worked great, the threat disappeared, no blood to clean up, not going to get arrested or sued, sounds like an ideal outcome.

Totally agree. The idea of home defense is to eliminate the threat, not always to kill. Sounds like it was a perfect outcome.

Maybe...

1. The perp could be dead in the woods somewhere.

2. Using a round which is far more likely to maim than kill increases your odds of a lawsuit.

3. If he had needed to do more than scare the guy, he could have been in trouble.

There was a story a few years ago (can't find it at the moment) about an older man who used a Taurus Judge loaded with birdshot to defend himself...he unloaded the gun into the perp and was then bludgeoned to death with his gun.

I think in his circumstance - and that of anyone who is afraid of using deadly force - you'd be better served using a can of pepper spray than birdshot.

 

[pbharvey]

The go to guru for any defensive load is Doc Roberts

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/

I've read this before and bought some #1 based on the analysis. (Although my SHTF stash is all 00)
It makes me wonder though why #1 isn't the primary load for LEO.

 

[swinokur]

Hence my preference.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=3503284&postcount=2

 

[joppaj]

I've read this before and bought some #1 based on the analysis. (Although my SHTF stash is all 00)
It makes me wonder though why #1 isn't the primary load for LEO.

I can only speculate that it may have something to do with the fact that we'd rather account for the placement of 8 or 9 pellets than 15.

 

[swinokur]

Or that they have purchased so much 00 that a change in purchases hasn't been noticed.

just speculation. how much shotgun ammo do LE agencies go through?

 

[joppaj]

We go through relatively little and most of that is probably slugs. I think carbines are phrasing out the police shotgun in many areas.

 

[pbharvey]

I can only speculate that it may have something to do with the fact that we'd rather account for the placement of 8 or 9 pellets than 15.

You recently got set up with a nice HD shotgun rig.
What shot size did you settle on?
Have you had the chance to run that gun much?
I'd like to hear how you like it.

 

[Vile Shadow]

You recently got set up with a nice HD shotgun rig.
What shot size did you settle on?
Have you had the chance to run that gun much?
I'd like to hear how you like it.

 

[joppaj]

I haven't had a chance to shoot the new FN yet. My Mossy 500 and my 870 both pattern very well with the 00 I mentioned above in a reduced recoil load.

 

[Pinecone]

Or that they have purchased so much 00 that a change in purchases hasn't been noticed.

just speculation. how much shotgun ammo do LE agencies go through?

Or the old "we have used 00 for years and it works just fine, there is no reason to look at anything else." mentality.

#1 Buck makes a LOT of sense.

BTW, a FLETC instructor once told me he recommends officers carry two rounds of WW Super Handicap #7 1/2 shells. There IS a use for birdshot, not HD, but LE.

 

[smokey]

The go to guru for any defensive load is Doc Roberts

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/

This post gives you what you need to know.

Here's a good video to watch...


So the big question becomes, how fair do you want the fight to be for the lives of your family between you and an unknown number of threats with unknown capabilities? Keep in mind that when you press the trigger, legally you're using deadly force...so whether you kill them, maim them, or miss them makes no real difference legally.

The choice between birdshot and buckshot boils down to what mechanism you are relying on to stop the threat. The main mechanisms are 1) psychological 2) physiological. Psychological means the badguy consciously makes a decision to stop being a threat to you. This could be the result of seeing a gun, getting scared, and running away. It could be the result of realizing they were shot at/shot. Or it could be any number of things. It could also never happen because you're relying on a decision by the badguy to go in your favor. It's not a very reliable means of stopping an attacker/attackers.

I personally prefer to plan for the worst and set myself up to force the threat to stop, whether they want to or not, by physiologically stopping them. This type of stop is caused by trauma and has three main categories...CNS damage, structural damage, and blood loss.

CNS damage means cutting the nerves that control the body or destroying the brain-housing-group. While quite effective, nature wasn't a fool in the evolution thing and placed your CNS at the rear of the thoracic cavity, then wrapped the whole thing in bone. It's also a small and moving target, with your brain being the size of both fists next to each other and our spine being a thumb-width vertical target down your midline.

Blood loss, or hypovolemic shock, is your most likely means of shutting down the badguy. You've got to damage things with heavy blood flow and cause a loss of >40% of their blood volume to get the badguy to essentially pass out. The problem here is that this process takes time...and you may not have much of it before the threat can harm you or your family. It's why poking as many holes as you can, that are as big as they can be is useful. You want to drain that bag of blood trying to hurt you as quick as you can. Again though, nature is no fool and tucked most of the major arteries and veins deep into your body behind lots of muscle, fat, and bone(ribs).

...see what I mean....


Birdshot just won't penetrate deep enough to reach those things that bleed a lot. It'll cause superficial trauma in your skin, adipose, and muscle tissue that will result in capillary bleeding, but not much arterial bleeding. You need something capable of reaching in a bit deeper to 12" or so to target these structures.

The last means of physiological stoppage is structural damage, and it's also the least effective. This means damaging the ability of the badguy to move by causing trauma to the skeletal musculo-skeletal system. Shots to the pelvic girdle, shoulder, femur...things like that. Of course, If you've ever seen a deer get whacked in its hindquarters by a car and then run off with a half-severed broken leg into the woods...you know that even with SEVERE structural damage, adrenaline, drugs, and a general determined frame of mind can still result in lots of retained mobility. You can also shoot a badguy's legs clean off lt dan style and they can shoot you from the ground.


So of the above means of stopping a threat, the order of effectiveness is
1) CNS
2) Hypovolemic Shock
3) structural damage
4) psychological

Of course CNS is not likely unless you essentially get lucky, and psycological is putting your life in the decisions of the badguy...so that leaves structural damage and hypovolemic shock as the two you need to plan for....and they both require something capable of doing lots of trauma 12"-16" deep. Don't forget that 12-16" is ballistics gel....which doesn't have skin. Our skin is roughly equivalent to 4" of gel...because again nature knows what it's doing and wrapped us in some pretty durable stuff.


So, with the above information I go back to how fair do you want the fight to be and do you want to bet the life of your family on the decisions of an unknown number of threats with unknown capabilities? If the answer is no, then physics and anatomy/physiology dictates that you use a load that is capable of doing as much trauma 8-16" deep as possible.

This immediately rules out birdshot, as it will cause lots of trauma, but only 4-6"...so clothes, skin, and ribs will likely prevent it from doing anything serious(remember dick cheney shot an old man in the face and still lived just fine?). So you look at what shotgun loads penetrate to the 12" mark...

penetration in shotgun shells is controlled roughly by the size of shot...the bigger the pellet, the deeper the penetration(velocity is also a factor...but we'll assume an equivalent payload at Low-recoil velocities of somewhere near 1200 fps). 1bk is the smallest shot that reliably penetrates to 12"....000 is too big and overpenetrates pretty severely...larger shot also means larger spaces between the shot in the wad and less total cross-sectional area. 1bk and 00 are then basically you're go-to loads...with slugs being an alternative(a good segmented or non-hardened slug that will deform/fragment and stop 12-16" into soft tissue).

Because of physics, these loads will penetrate lots of drywall(a .22lr will penetrate lots of drywall). They're also the most likely to stop the threat quickly...meaning you won't have to keep shooting again and again and again as much like you would have to with a less-effective load. Knowing that you WILL be going through drywall, the earlier advice to consider your backstop ahead of time is sage. Don't forget to think in 3-d...if you don't have a very good direction in 360 degrees, you may have to change level and shoot from kneeling with the fire directed at an upward angle so it clears the level where beds and things are on the other side of the wall.

It was also mentioned that an AR or other similar rifle in 5.56/.223 makes a great option...and they do. Where I'd offer different advice is to go more towards a polymer-tipped load instead of fmj if you're concerned with overpenetration. You'll lose a little penetration going to something in the 50-60 gr range with a polymer tip over a 55 fmj or 77gr otm bullet, but they'll more readily breakup through barriers than handgun or shotgun loads while still retaining great ability to cause trauma at the desired depth.

 

[MikeTF]

If all I had was bird shot, I'd make a 'cut shell' and use it for home defense:

 

[eschafer]

Mossbberg 500a1

 

[swinokur]

see ya

 

[alucard0822]

This post gives you what you need to know.

Here's a good video to watch...

 

[jwhite407]

20 Gauge with an 18.5" bbl, pistol grip and #4 buckshot...

 

[smokey]

already posting long replies at all hours of the night I see

Most controlled expansion handgun ammo will delay or reduce expansion through barriers, so there is some form of compensation that will give consistent penetration through a variety of media, the results of a ton of R&D. Buckshot may deform, but doesn't rely on an expanding mechanism, so the 12" that #1 can obtain in bare gel is absolute best case, add any clothing or barrier, and the penetration will be reduced under the 12"-18" FBI standard. So while shot placement, angle, target physique and a hundred other things probably matter more than the terminal difference between slugs, #1 and 00, it wouldn't be the internet if we didn't declare one superior to the other.

12ga recoil is heavy by nature, so any opportunity to reduce recoil while preserving penetration and the capability of tissue damage is welcome IMO, so managed recoil 2 3/4" loads are best IMO, they can be shot faster with better precision than full power 2 3/4, MUCH less recoil and faster handling/loading than 3" shells. Federal managed recoil 00 is the best(9pellet@1140FPS), tests about 16" in gel, so it can penetrate some clothing and barriers while still penetrating sufficiently, and patterns very well from my 870.

Managed recoil slugs are also good IMO, buck has a tendency to spread rapidly after going through a penetrable barrier like drywall, slugs don't. Might have a tight 3" pattern at 20 feet with 00 buck, but put a piece of drywall or plywood 5 feet in front of it, and that pattern will be a foot or more, and gets wider the closer the barrier gets to the shooter. For this reason Buck can increase the area and angle where someone on the other side of a wall could get hit by an errant pellet, even if that pellet has a lot less power than a single slug trucking relatively straight through the wall. Slugs penetrate well, deflect little, deform or expand to a large diameter, at managed recoil velocities around 1oz@1200FPS recoil is mild, and penetration is around 18".

haha yes brother. Taking turns with wifey on who's standing guard for youngin and who's getting sleep. She went through a lot, so I just let her sleep through her turn and figured I'd crank out a nerd-post to keep awake.

Agreed the federal low recoil 00 with flitecontrol is a fantastic load. It's what's in the 870 now, along with some low recoil federal truball HP slugs on the sidesaddle to change over to if needed.