Help me understand legality of custom AR pistol?

[DSBartender]

In my view they all (stripped lowers) have to be classified as other, since they are not a pistol nor a long gun at the time of the transfer. Saying they are a pistol or a long gun could almost be considered to be fraudulent.



I'm not on any crusade, but people need to know what they are signing when it comes to these 4473 forms.



How many people out there don't know this and have manufactured a pistol on a lower that an ffl mistakenly classified as a long gun? I'm sure there have been many.



Will it come back and bite them? I hope not.



Just be careful out there and make sure those forms are correct BEFORE you sign them.

ROGER



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[hotdog]

Agreed! It is buyer’s responsibility to pre-audit the form before signing it. Check all important information including the serial number. Human/paperwork error is very common. Once you sign it, it is final.



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[CrazySanMan]

Sounds like I need to buy a new lower for my pistol build.

I'm assuming then that if I complete an 80% lower I can build a pistol from that since there is no 4473?

 

[outrider58]

Sounds like I need to buy a new lower for my pistol build.

I'm assuming then that if I complete an 80% lower I can build a pistol from that since there is no 4473?

Sounds right to me. I think the only thing you can't build(without the requisite paperwork) is an SBR.

 

[lazarus]

Good to know about carbine to pistol rule. Looks like I'm buying a carbine then, because I don't have time nor the desire to build this myself. I want a complete package from this custom builder, and it seems if I want a pistol, all I can do is order his stripped lower and complete upper and build it myself - which seems ridiculous - thanks Frosh!

As much as I hate across, the handgun roster has been around for a long time and AFAIK he wasn’t involved in the legislation that set it up.

Building a lower takes all of about 30 minutes for someone who knows what they are doing. Less with “the right tools” and a lot of experience. My first one using YouTube to help out I think took me 90 minutes.

I hear you on it being annoying, but other then not wanting to, there really is zero reason not to build your own. Especially since as mentioned many are more then willing to help.

If an AR pistol is what you want, there are a few on the handguard roster. Or if it is that specific one, get the stripped lower, the lower parts kit and the upper and go to town. No HQL needed in that case either.

Or if it doesn’t matter that much, get the carbine. IMHO, AR pistols for me are meh. I built one and I plan to swap the padded buffer tube for a stabilizer. That said, I still prefer a real rifle or carbine. It’s a “for feces and giggles” toy I take to the range once a year, put 100rnds through it and put it back in the safe.

 

[dblas]

Sounds like I need to buy a new lower for my pistol build.

I'm assuming then that if I complete an 80% lower I can build a pistol from that since there is no 4473?

You would be correct.

 

[lazarus]

My question would be why were these stripped lower classified as anything but "Other"? They should not be listed as a long gun or a pistol. Since they are only lower receivers, and have not been built yet, how can they be classified as anything but "Other"?

FFL screwed up royally, in my opinion.

The two Sabre defense CAV-15 lowers I got I think we’re transferred as “rifles”. I have to go back and look. Might have been others (was on a 77r). They are a built different as they have the stock as part of the mould (polymer lowers).

So short of a lot of surgery, you couldn’t remove the stock to build a pistol. Rifle or SBR ONLY for those two lowers. All the rest of my normal AR lowers (even my AR-10 lower) transferee as “other”

 

[lazarus]

Sounds right to me. I think the only thing you can't build(without the requisite paperwork) is an SBR.

Or AOW if putting a VFG on a “pistol”

 

[Biggfoot44]

Actually the Lower doesn't have to be Stripped per se , just virgin.

Yes , I have purchased complete Lowers on a 77R as "other " .

Added - You made me look . Frosh was first elected to House of Delegates, for the election just after the passing of the Roster , so he was close . Probably lobbied for it in his then current guise as Political Activist.

 

[outrider58]

Actually the Lower doesn't have to be Stripped per se , just virgin.

Yes , I have purchased complete Lowers on a 77R as "other " .

Added - You made me look . Frosh was first elected to House of Delegates, for the election just after the passing of the Roster , so he was close . Probably lobbied for it in his then current guise as Political Activist.

What if said lower(finished but virgin) came with a stock. Would it have to be transferred as a rifle?

 

[Biggfoot44]

As long as it is virgin from the mfg , and has *Never* had a rifle bbl attached , it is an "Other" . I've bought a couple this way , with buttstock attached.

( Don't attach a rifle upper before removing rifle stock . Have a pistol buffer tube on hand . Depending on your level of paranoia , be aware what combinations of parts are in your constructive possession in what sequence .)

 

[danb]

What if you put 77 virgin lowers on a 77r. Would you end up in 'Murica?

 

[outrider58]

As long as it is virgin from the mfg , and has *Never* had a rifle bbl attached , it is an "Other" . I've bought a couple this way , with buttstock attached.

( Don't attach a rifle upper before removing rifle stock . Have a pistol buffer tube on hand . Depending on your level of paranoia , be aware what combinations of parts are in your constructive possession in what sequence .)

Actually, I believe it is legal to use a standard positionable carbine buffer tube on a pistol. Just have to squeeze the stock off before pinning the pistol upper on it. I asked the first question because I wasn't quite sure when a long gun became a long gun.

 

[kraftyone]

When you purchase the lower do you need it to be specified as a handgun on the 4473? I have several stripped lowers and wanted to make one a pistol but the 4473's all say long gun so I wasn't sure if I could use them for pistols.

All my stripped lowers were sold as other not rifle or pistol that way I can make anything I want out of them.

 

[OnTarget]

All my stripped lowers were sold as other not rifle or pistol that way I can make anything I want out of them.

Time has gone by. Stripped lowers have never been used. When transferred after purchase from dealer, FFL's have never given me a copy of 4473. So I would not have a clue whether the lowers were listed as Other, Pistol, or Rifle.

So, then, it seems to me that I should use the lowers to produce rifles, no matter how the lowers were listed on 4473. This seems like the safest choice. I don't see me ever being able to determine how the lowers were originally ranked.

PS - I've always thought he customer should receive a copy of 4473.

 

[Biggfoot44]

4473's didn't always include a catagory for "other" , and back in the very earliest days of AR pistols , did require a reciever transferred as a pistol . (Yes, I know a reciever Can't actually be either a pistol or rifle w/o having had a bbl attached. Just reporting a brief historical practice .)

And yes a carbine stock could be modified as described by Outrider , and then built into a Pistol . But for Me personally that's over my personal line to do or recomend , when proper dedicated pistol buffer tubes are common and cheap. Your milage , as well as paranoia , will vary .

 

[outrider58]

4473's didn't always include a catagory for "other" , and back in the very earliest days of AR pistols , did require a reciever transferred as a pistol . (Yes, I know a reciever Can't actually be either a pistol or rifle w/o having had a bbl attached. Just reporting a brief historical practice .)

And yes a carbine stock could be modified as described by Outrider , and then built into a Pistol . But for Me personally that's over my personal line to do or recomend , when proper dedicated pistol buffer tubes are common and cheap. Your milage , as well as paranoia , will vary .

I'm pretty much in agreement with this.

I hearkened back a couple years ago when a member posted pics of his newly built AR pistol sporting a standard carbine buffer tube. A couple members(me among them) warned him of 'creative intent' and that he should remove said buffer and remove said picture from the forum. Only problem was, we were wrong.

 

[NateIU10]

There are a lot of things that don't meet the federal definitions (just look at Maryland's definition of handgun).

There is also nothing in federal law that says said error doesn't make a firearm an actual type, but I believe this has been answered by ATF, that any receiver, if not marked "other" on the 4473, is what it was marked as (in this case - rifle) and can only be built into what it was designated on the 4473.

I would love to see that, because that does not make sense nor is it consistent with guidance I have received from ATF. It is, in fact, inapposite to guidance I have from them.

I do not understand your point about federal and state law having different definitions for a single word. That happens all the time. One definition applies to application of federal laws, one definition applies to application of state laws.

So basically all 4473’s for lowers should be filled out as “other” regardless of intention just to be safe. Should I decide to exercise free will and change my mind about a build I’ll be covered.

The two Sabre defense CAV-15 lowers I got I think we’re transferred as “rifles”. I have to go back and look. Might have been others (was on a 77r). They are a built different as they have the stock as part of the mould (polymer lowers).

So short of a lot of surgery, you couldn’t remove the stock to build a pistol. Rifle or SBR ONLY for those two lowers. All the rest of my normal AR lowers (even my AR-10 lower) transferee as “other”

A receiver with a stock is still an "Other" for purposes of federal law as it does not have a barrel. A firearm without a barrel cannot meet the definition of "Rifle." Failure to properly record the firearm type is a violation of federal law, so the dealer doesn't really have a "choice" on which box to check.

4473's didn't always include a catagory for "other" , and back in the very earliest days of AR pistols , did require a reciever transferred as a pistol . (Yes, I know a reciever Can't actually be either a pistol or rifle w/o having had a bbl attached. Just reporting a brief historical practice .)

Correct, I want to say it was 2007 to 2009-ish when the form was changed to include the necessary firearm types. ATF also issued an open letter at one point to FFLs explaining why a frame or receiver cannot be a rifle or pistol (even if that frame or receiver could only be built into either).

Federal law reads:

The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

If the firearm is not/did not at one point meet that definition, it was never a rifle, regardless of what a piece of paper says.

This is not legal advice.

 

[NateIU10]

[/B]

I'm pretty much in agreement with this.

I hearkened back a couple years ago when a member posted pics of his newly built AR pistol sporting a standard carbine buffer tube. A couple members(me among them) warned him of 'creative intent' and that he should remove said buffer and remove said picture from the forum. Only problem was, we were wrong.

That's the same reason 99% of dealers that receive a Colt OEM gun improperly record the ATF type in their A&D.

 

[MirandaB]

Under federal regulations, once a receiver is designated as being built into a firearm in a given configuration (i.e., rifle or pistol) it can never be used for something else. So if, for example, you want to build yourself a lever-action mare's leg, you MUST make or buy a receiver that has NEVER been made into a rifle. You can't just take a lever-action rifle and cut it down to create a mare's leg.

The same goes for the AR platform. You have to be sure that any lower you may purchase was only ever sold as a receiver, and NOT as part of a firearm that was manufactured as a rifle. Since lowers are quite common on the market, be careful to determine for certain the provenance of any lower you are considering purchasing. If it was EVER part of a gun that was manufactured, registered, or sold as a rifle you cannot use it for a pistol.