HB910/SB958 Criminal Law - Untraceable Firearms

[teratos]

Same problems as last time, plus a "real AOW" and an "undetectable firearm" ban for no obvious reason (except to maybe make the rest of the bill pass?). No grandfathering, and still basically bans all home gun manufacture of any kind. You could, in theory, save your current non-3D-printed stuff by taking it to a SOT to have them engrave a serial (which, ironically, the state will still know nothing about). Does seem to ban 80% kits without a serial. A clever SOT in this state could, in theory, just buy the kits, engrave serials on them, NOT RECORD THEM, and then sell the kits completely legally. Putting a serial number on it doesn't make traceable, guys. IIRC, the ATF only knows about serials because of the books, and 80%s are not in the books!

There's a lot wrong with this bill. If the state insisted they wanted to know about all home gun manufacture, they could easily have people apply for a serial from the MSP LD portal, which would infringe on everyone's freedom much less.

That could be interesting. Will have to look closer at that.

 

[Lloyd]

I wish this thread was in the WC.


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[PowPow]

If it was you who had to put the serial number on it, your argument might come into play. But the serial needs to be issued by an FFL as per the bill's text. And when I did a survey of a few manufacturers last year when this issue came up, none was willing to issue a # for a home built. It appears to be some ATF reg; a FFL can't issue a serial for something they didn't manufacture. So the bill as written cannot be complied with for adding a serial # to a home built receiver/firearm. All you can do is not possess the home built firearm in the first place

As the bill is currently written, only a licensed manufacturer can put a serial number on it - you cannot put a serial on your own gun

When I said "you", I was meaning they are saying "you are responsible for getting a serial number put on it." Obviously the bill says that to comply, you cannot be the one to come up with the number and do said engraving.

Funny thing is, as I understand it, this is in conflict with existing federal law, which allows one do do their own. But, that's not my beef.

I have a big problem with the government TELLING ME to alter/deface my private property for ANY reason. They might say, you let us label your cars with license plates. Why not a firearm? That's a false equivalency. I didn't make my car. But, if I labored for days, weeks, months, or even years on a home made firearm to get it to function from the ground up and look the way I want it, damned if I'm going to let the government tell me to have someone else hack it up with a serial number just so someone can say they did something about gun violence that will only impact common hobbyists.

They might say, well, if you want to ever sell it, you have to get a serial number engraved on it then, so what's your problem? Well, that's already federal law. I have an issue with that one too.

Serial numbers are for one reason and one reason only. They exist so that the government can say, "Okay, we've got this one to go hunt down and confiscate. "Go find B54636723626. It was last known to be [here]."

 

[lazarus]

When I said "you", I was meaning they are saying "you are responsible for getting a serial number put on it." Obviously the bill says that to comply, you cannot be the one to come up with the number and do said engraving.

Funny thing is, as I understand it, this is in conflict with existing federal law, which allows one do do their own. But, that's not my beef.

I have a big problem with the government TELLING ME to alter/deface my private property for ANY reason. They might say, you let us label your cars with license plates. Why not a firearm? That's a false equivalency. I didn't make my car. But, if I labored for days, weeks, months, or even years on a home made firearm to get it to function from the ground up and look the way I want it, damned if I'm going to let the government tell me to have someone else hack it up with a serial number just so someone can say they did something about gun violence that will only impact common hobbyists.

They might say, well, if you want to ever sell it, you have to get a serial number engraved on it then, so what's your problem? Well, that's already federal law. I have an issue with that one too.

Serial numbers are for one reason and one reason only. They exist so that the government can say, "Okay, we've got this one to go hunt down and confiscate. "Go find B54636723626. It was last known to be [here]."

You can build your own car too, which takes a lot more effort than building a gun.

They require you to get a VIN in most states and engrave/attach it to your vehicle as well as put a license plate on it if driven on public roads.

If I wear a T-shirt that says “F the gov’t” it doesn’t matter if I made it or someone else did. It’s my free speech rights to have and wear it.

TBH your 1A argument is pretty poor compared to a 2A argument. None of our rights are unlimited and all can be infringed at least a little bit if the gov’t can demonstrate a greater good. They can certainly do that with license plates on a car. They probably could for serial numbers on a gun.

But they can’t for sure (at least not for anyone with two brain cells to rub together) on banning possession of a firearm you made.

They’d have less of an uphill battle if they required you to get a S/N from MSP and engrave or affix it to your firearm. I’d disagree with it. But banning any gun a manufacturer didn’t make? That’s beyond the pale.

 

[Bolts Rock]

I've seen some of these 3D printed guns on You tube. Many explode or Crack badly after one shot. It reminds me of the zip-gun days. I understand the tech is new, and will get better with time. I have to say I'm in favor of this bill, there will come a time when anyone could run off an entire series of firearms with no oversight at all. My biggest concern would be if they injure the user, there is no recourse.

How does that tyrant boot polish taste or are you licking whatever the tyrant stepped in off the sole?

Thanks MD... I don't need to build my own gun... I don't even particularly want to build my own gun... but now that you are telling me that I can't build my own gun; I pretty much have to build my own gun. And so it shall be.

5-D Tactical jig and tooling set with a Dewalt DWP-611. First one takes about an hour and a half, by the third one you're down to 30 minutes per.

Pic is one of my first paperweight conversions because they didn't want me to so I just had to.

 

[erwos]

I don't LIKE the idea of applying to the state for a serial, but it would certainly be an improvement over what's being proposed.

 

[rbird7282]

Thanks MD... I don't need to build my own gun... I don't even particularly want to build my own gun... but now that you are telling me that I can't build my own gun; I pretty much have to build my own gun. And so it shall be.

THIS. Never had an interest in building a 80% Glock, don’t particularly even care for Glock.
Guess what I’m doing if this passes. ...


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[teratos]

THIS. Never had an interest in building a 80% Glock, don’t particularly even care for Glock.
Guess what I’m doing if this passes. ...


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Let me know if you are interested in a 1911. All you really need to use my jigs for is drilling the pin holes and cutting the slide rails, and doing the decking on some. Once those are done, the rest can be done at home on your time. I will give anyone who wants to make the drive to Bel Air with a slide and frame access to my jigs. F them.

 

[rbird7282]

Let me know if you are interested in a 1911. All you really need to use my jigs for is drilling the pin holes and cutting the slide rails, and doing the decking on some. Once those are done, the rest can be done at home on your time. I will give anyone who wants to make the drive to Bel Air with a slide and frame access to my jigs. F them.

I appreciate it. I have a Para P-14 in .45 and LOVE it.
Might be time to build a 2011.


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[135sohc]

I wish this thread was in the WC.

Because MSP and god knows who else wont see it in there ???

 

[teratos]

I appreciate it. I have a Para P-14 in .45 and LOVE it.
Might be time to build a 2011.


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I can cut 2011 slides and can confirm there are 2011 80 percents IN STEEL out there.

 

[lennyk]

Same stuff again this year....

Personally I think this is appeasement for Bloomberg reelection campaign donations. Nothing else. This has nothing to do with the Baltimore crime rates, nothing.

 

[BeoBill]

So much I have for exactly this reason.


Why? BECAUSE **** YOU!!

My SERNO: **** YOU - I like it. I'm going to have to look into getting a 79% t stay legal. Bastids!

 

[Cruacious]

We can play the percentage game for years honestly. It may even get to the point they try to ban the designs themselves, or at least possession of information that can be used to produce a firearm. I don't think the Dims have a limit.

 

[Kharn]

I don’t recall which manufacturer put the serial # on there.

You too? Jeez, getting old is really hard some days.
I paid cash, and his markings are really poorly done, I wish I could get a refund.

 

[KIBarrister]

Even California didn’t go this far.

 

[Doctor_M]

MD and VA neck and neck in the RACE TO THE BOTTOM. VA had edged ahead, but MD is coming around the clubhouse turn and giving her the whip.

 

[lazarus]

Even California didn’t go this far.

But New Jersey did. You can always rely On New Jersey to go full retard.

 

[Doctor_M]

I'm in California right now... a group of my colleagues and I had lunch in Manhattan Beach (if you've ever seen a beach volleyball tournament on TV, it was probably there)… beautiful beach, beautiful views of the mountains, beautiful homes (all in the 10-20 M range right along the beach). So of course the conversation goes to "wouldn't you love to live here", to which my answer was "No". Of course I get asked why and my reply was Maryland is bad enough on the anti-liberty scale. No need to move to someplace that is even worse. So one of my co-workers rolls her eyes and says, "oh is this a gun thing". I said no, it is a "LIBERTY" thing. It truly is a word that most people don't understand any longer.

 

[6-Pack]

What I don’t get is how the 2A, which is a right afforded to all US citizens, is applied differently. For example, you live in Missouri you have more rights than someone in New Jersey (or any other liberal cesspool), but we all have the same basic right. I’m hoping Trump wins 2020 and we finally have a national standard for the 2A, just like abortion. At least, we won’t be worse off than where we are currently.