Gun search question at traffic stop based on NRA sticker

[Threeband]

Why waist all those words, when "no" suffices? Clear, concise, and to the point.

...

The question is often phrased so that either yes or no can be taken as consent to search. "You don't mind if I conduct a quick search for my own safety, do you?"

Either "yes" or "no" will be considered consent to search.

And the vocal majority minority do not support laws being enforced.

I hope you meant minority!

 

[Mooseman]

Look, here's the problem. A lot of Police these days view their job as a game - literally. That's actually how they refer to our profession and to be perfectly frank it pisses me off. Rare is the day where I'm not forced to listen to this particular breed of loud mouth ******* brag about all the one gelcap and driving while suspended lock ups he's made. Meanwhile burglary, robbery and larceny run rampant and abandoned stolen vehicles sit on the street waiting to be reclaimed for days or weeks on end. To them the job isn't about justice and it isn't about saving lives and protecting property, rather it's about scoring points. The way that one scores "points" in the "game" is by writing citations/repair orders and making arrests, no matter how petty or unnecessary they may be. These are the same humps who arrest five people drinking and having a loud conversation outside of their house for disorderly conduct where a warning would have sufficed. And oh, by the way, it's Friday night and we're now short yet another car. Thanks a lot. But hey, that's five arrests whereas locking up that burglar climbing out of the back window of the house would only be one arrest. Priorities, ladies and gentlemen, priorities.

Policing isn't what it used to be. Drugs and guns are the name of the game now. That's what all these new folks are taught, regardless of agency. Gone are the days when new Cops aspired to investigate robberies or become a check and fraud detective. Seriously, ask new Cops where they want to go in their careers - almost without exception you get the following answers: 1) SWAT 2) Canine 3) Whatever acronym their particular agency's drug unit is known by. The trouble is this: you cannot arrest your way to a drug free Maryland. I don't care how many misdemeanor CDS lock ups you make the problem isn't going away. Burglary, on the other hand, is a problem that can be solved by arrest. Usually when you have a rash of burglaries it's one or a handful of people committing the crimes. Lock him (or them) up and the problem goes away. Of course, burglary investigations and stakeouts are time and labor intensive meaning that one doesn't receive the instant gratification that one gets when one finds a crack pipe in the center console on a traffic stop, hence why many new Officers choose the path of least resistance. And as for the argument that drug abuse leads to crimes against property, I'll say this: many burglars and thieves are drug users but most drug users aren't thieves and burglars. If they were it would be like a plague of locusts had descended on the State of Maryland. Junkies who steal are a special breed. They'd be out stealing even if they weren't addicts.

Personally, I have nothing against traffic enforcement. It's a necessary part of the job. If your brake lights don't work, at some point you're going to get rear-ended hence why I stop folks for defective equipment. At the same time I don't go on a fishing expedition for two reasons. First, because it's a waste of time. Unless I see something that gives me reason to believe that the driver or passenger(s) are criminals I'm completing my stop and moving on. Every moment wasted on a traffic stop waiting for a gun dog because someone had an NRA bumper sticker is a moment I could've spent talking to the residents and business owners on my post and paying a call on my known predators. Second, by questioning every motorist you stop as though they were a potential felon you help but breed an unimaginable level of hatred of the Police. A lot of cops can't turn off their 'cop vision' and see things through the eyes of a private citizen. Being asked to consent to a search of your car for guns and drugs when you're on your way back from work based on a burnt out stop light both frightens and angers people. These, by the way, are the same people that we need to provide us with information to be effective at doing our jobs. Part of the reason that canine sweeps, checkpoints and a high volume of car stops are considered necessary is because we've pissed such a large percentage of the public off that they have withdrawn their voluntary cooperation. You have to be able to alternate between good Cop and bad Cop at the drop of a hat based on your audience. Sadly, too many can't.

Bottom line, they're doing things this way because it's how they were taught to conduct themselves and/or it's the culture of the agency. If you don't like it request an audience with the local barrack commander, district commander, precinct commander or sheriff and express your concerns. Better yet, bring your friends when you come. Be polite, be civil, wearing business attire, have your argument agreed on before hand and stay on point. If you don't want to be policed in a certain way then say so. A lot of Cops believe that what you described is "doing God's work" and they've never received any feedback to the contrary. It's up to you to provide that feedback. If you want more Cops working stake outs and fewer Cops running radar or lidar then make your voice heard. If you like the way that you're being policed then feel free to remain silent. The choice is yours.

 

[MikeTF]

In Virginia, it is expected that you have a gun in your car.

 

[Blaster229]

In order for the cop to search (consent), your initial stop has to be completed, citation written and issued and your license a registration(id) returned back to you and free to go.
He asks to search, you refuse and then the semantics begin.
Ask if you are free to go and see what he says. You are not detained at that point. If he says he wants to get the dog, say fine. If you cannot leave by car, get out, lock the door and walk away. Refusal to a consent search is not rs or pc for a search.

Ballsy thing to do but legal.

 

[miben]

Appreciate this response.

 

[swinokur]

In Virginia, it is expected that you have a gun in your car.

Where you live. NOVA is filled with the same raging liberal idiots as Mo Co.

Nothing different between Arlington, Fairfax and Mo Co IMHO.

 

[igotyoubeat]

While I am no attorney here, nor am I giving legal advise. It's the drivers right not to answer questions, If I was in this situation I would simply ask the OFC why I was pulled over. That is the extent of the police contact here. When he starts asking questions just tell him you are fully cooperating with the traffic stop however any other questions you are exercising your right to remain silent. Additionally I would advise the OFC I was recording the whole event via video.

 

[Blaster229]

Another thing, you can tell the cop to stop searching your vehicle and he has to. But they are not required to tell you that you can tell them to stop after they start. I'd record the whole thing, ask them to stop and let the fun begin.

 

[swinokur]

Stop - you're giving away all your trade secrets !

 

[Inigoes]

The question is often phrased so that either yes or no can be taken as consent to search. "You don't mind if I conduct a quick search for my own safety, do you?"

Either "yes" or "no" will be considered consent to search.

No means "no". It suffices for rape cases

 

[swinokur]

Plainly say "I do not consent to a search."

No ambiguity there.

 

[Blaster229]

Stop - you're giving away all your trade secrets !

Meh. I never made every stop a drug interdiction stop, unless I was working the highway on I35 through Texas doing interdiction.
Unless they gave me a reason, a traffic citation was just that. Cut 'em loose and move on to the next one.

Vehicle searches are a pain in the ass anyway.

 

[Bolts Rock]

Second, by questioning every motorist you stop as though they were a potential felon you help but breed an unimaginable level of hatred of the Police. A lot of cops can't turn off their 'cop vision' and see things through the eyes of a private citizen. Being asked to consent to a search of your car for guns and drugs when you're on your way back from work based on a burnt out stop light both frightens and angers people. These, by the way, are the same people that we need to provide us with information to be effective at doing our jobs. Part of the reason that canine sweeps, checkpoints and a high volume of car stops are considered necessary is because we've pissed such a large percentage of the public off that they have withdrawn their voluntary cooperation. You have to be able to alternate between good Cop and bad Cop at the drop of a hat based on your audience. Sadly, too many can't.

That right there explains why a large number of members, myself often included, have a real hard time with the thin blue shit expressed by some LEO's on this forum. We have real problems with no-knocks for minor shit, warrantless searches, wrong address raids and general "copitude". Bad cops and institutional ******** (the war on insert crime here....your or your institution's word made extremely obvious, you use the word WAR) have made you the enemies of peaceful relations. some claim it's "only a few bad actors" without waking up to the fact it is escalating every year and it isn't just the prevalence of the internet and 24 hour news cycle. It's not every cop.........yet but it seems to be heading that way. Yeah, we want you to catch the actual criminals, legally under the Constitution and you should be able to go home alive at night. But do not try to play the "officer safety" shit, cops aren't even in the top 10 or 15 most dangerous occupations in the US and as Sheriff Lewis said last year high speed chase crashes kill something like 3 times as many cops as do guns these days. My job is just as dangerous as yours but what can kill me is almost always invisible and odorless; 1.5KVDC-150KVDC or cryogens that expand at ratios like 694:1 and displace all the oxygen are no joke and you get exactly zero warning when it happens, no hinky or furtive behavior to tip you off.

Am I venting? Yep! Will I be a dick if you pull me over for a broken tail light? Nope. But the second you start fishing I go from nice cooperative guy to f*ck you, get a warrant.

I think a good part of the problem with the young ones is what I see in non-cop young ones, they think it's normal. People I work with younger than their late 30's wouldn't think of walking up to a cop and asking directions, to them cops are only there to arrest you and we're talking professionals like engineers and technicians.

Until you can tell us who the real criminals are and what they look like then we will continue to treat every stop the same way. Society can't say they don't want police to profile people AND say that they don't want to be treated like a criminal during a traffic stop because the officer is asking questions. No one has found middle ground for that yet and honestly treating everyone the same is the most fair way, is it not?

See above, it's aimed right at you.

As far as the "how much have you had to drink?" Question, I ask it sometimes if I can't smell the alcoholic beverage on their breath do I can get them to talk and maybe smell the odor at that point, or if they admit to the odor I already smell. If they haven't been drinking then oh well, I stop pushing the issue.

You'll likely get "I'd guess about 3/4 of a pot of coffee" or "Couple of sodas" if I'm feeling nice, you might also get "Nothing I shouldn't have been before driving" if your attitude smacks of dick.

A lot of you need a dose of Mayberry Andy.

 

[K31]

I have NRA stickers, Gadsden flags, Glock decals, Ruger decals, all proudly displayed next to "Obama/Biden" and "Hillary 2016" stickers, none of which are on my vehicles.

 

[Bigdtc]

Look, here's the problem. A lot of Police these days view their job as a game - literally. That's actually how they refer to our profession and to be perfectly frank it pisses me off. Rare is the day where I'm not forced to listen to this particular breed of loud mouth ******* brag about all the one gelcap and driving while suspended lock ups he's made. Meanwhile burglary, robbery and larceny run rampant and abandoned stolen vehicles sit on the street waiting to be reclaimed for days or weeks on end. To them the job isn't about justice and it isn't about saving lives and protecting property, rather it's about scoring points. The way that one scores "points" in the "game" is by writing citations/repair orders and making arrests, no matter how petty or unnecessary they may be. These are the same humps who arrest five people drinking and having a loud conversation outside of their house for disorderly conduct where a warning would have sufficed. And oh, by the way, it's Friday night and we're now short yet another car. Thanks a lot. But hey, that's five arrests whereas locking up that burglar climbing out of the back window of the house would only be one arrest. Priorities, ladies and gentlemen, priorities.

Policing isn't what it used to be. Drugs and guns are the name of the game now. That's what all these new folks are taught, regardless of agency. Gone are the days when new Cops aspired to investigate robberies or become a check and fraud detective. Seriously, ask new Cops where they want to go in their careers - almost without exception you get the following answers: 1) SWAT 2) Canine 3) Whatever acronym their particular agency's drug unit is known by. The trouble is this: you cannot arrest your way to a drug free Maryland. I don't care how many misdemeanor CDS lock ups you make the problem isn't going away. Burglary, on the other hand, is a problem that can be solved by arrest. Usually when you have a rash of burglaries it's one or a handful of people committing the crimes. Lock him (or them) up and the problem goes away. Of course, burglary investigations and stakeouts are time and labor intensive meaning that one doesn't receive the instant gratification that one gets when one finds a crack pipe in the center console on a traffic stop, hence why many new Officers choose the path of least resistance. And as for the argument that drug abuse leads to crimes against property, I'll say this: many burglars and thieves are drug users but most drug users aren't thieves and burglars. If they were it would be like a plague of locusts had descended on the State of Maryland. Junkies who steal are a special breed. They'd be out stealing even if they weren't addicts.

Personally, I have nothing against traffic enforcement. It's a necessary part of the job. If your brake lights don't work, at some point you're going to get rear-ended hence why I stop folks for defective equipment. At the same time I don't go on a fishing expedition for two reasons. First, because it's a waste of time. Unless I see something that gives me reason to believe that the driver or passenger(s) are criminals I'm completing my stop and moving on. Every moment wasted on a traffic stop waiting for a gun dog because someone had an NRA bumper sticker is a moment I could've spent talking to the residents and business owners on my post and paying a call on my known predators. Second, by questioning every motorist you stop as though they were a potential felon you help but breed an unimaginable level of hatred of the Police. A lot of cops can't turn off their 'cop vision' and see things through the eyes of a private citizen. Being asked to consent to a search of your car for guns and drugs when you're on your way back from work based on a burnt out stop light both frightens and angers people. These, by the way, are the same people that we need to provide us with information to be effective at doing our jobs. Part of the reason that canine sweeps, checkpoints and a high volume of car stops are considered necessary is because we've pissed such a large percentage of the public off that they have withdrawn their voluntary cooperation. You have to be able to alternate between good Cop and bad Cop at the drop of a hat based on your audience. Sadly, too many can't.

Bottom line, they're doing things this way because it's how they were taught to conduct themselves and/or it's the culture of the agency. If you don't like it request an audience with the local barrack commander, district commander, precinct commander or sheriff and express your concerns. Better yet, bring your friends when you come. Be polite, be civil, wearing business attire, have your argument agreed on before hand and stay on point. If you don't want to be policed in a certain way then say so. A lot of Cops believe that what you described is "doing God's work" and they've never received any feedback to the contrary. It's up to you to provide that feedback. If you want more Cops working stake outs and fewer Cops running radar or lidar then make your voice heard. If you like the way that you're being policed then feel free to remain silent. The choice is yours.

Well done, as usual.
I've mentioned here before that I have two close relatives that work for 2 different agencies in Md. One works for MSP in Pikesville and the other for Carroll County Sherriff's dept.. Both have stated the same thing that you have. The culture within each of the departments that they work for is exactly as you have said. They both see a huge amount of time wasted. They agree that it is inefficient and costly to the dept and the public as well as being a PR nightmare. Policing is very different from what it used to be and what it should be.
AS for your last paragraph, I think that people do not do this because we(or they) are conditioned to the kind of behavior by police as far as traffic stops, news stories, etc. People are just used to seeing many traffic stops on a daily basis and accept it as the norm. Many here can attest to seeing this and the alleged perp car pulled over with the driver leaning on the guard rail and a long line of cop cars behind the alleged perp's car.. Happens all the time. People think that there are "traffic cops" and investigators as separate entities that are out handling the "real crimes" that you speak of. Also, I think there would be a bit of fear in a group going down to the local P.D. and expressing that they would like a different kind of policing as well. Fear of reprisal and just the possible reaction of the police there to a large group walking into the station to have a "conversation".. I just don't see that happening.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

 

[John from MD]

I always wanted to have stickers on my car. But after hearing that yes, a "This vehicle protected by Smith and Wesson" was probable cause for a search. I won't display pro-gun of political stickers. A lot depends on the cop and the judge but I don't need the prejudice.

Who told you this nonsense? We actually have case law that says bumper stickers are protected speech. I know that even my agency will not tell you to remove bumper stickers they don't like because they have been burned in the past.

We need more people to advertise firearm ownership. Maybe if more people look into a car and see a well dressed man or woman they may have second thoughts about gun owners.

Stand and fight!

John

 

[dfens42]

Who told you this nonsense? We actually have case law that says bumper stickers are protected speech. I know that even my agency will not tell you to remove bumper stickers they don't like because they have been burned in the past.

We need more people to advertise firearm ownership. Maybe if more people look into a car and see a well dressed man or woman they may have second thoughts about gun owners.

Stand and fight!

John

I was about to say, I would love to be pulled over and record an officer saying the reason for an NRA sticker.

I can also attest to the time wasting shenanigans. I was pulled over on the shoulder lights and hazards on a little after midnight a few months back, answering a text message and getting directions pulled up on my phone, had a AACOPD unit pull up behind me and play 20 questions.

 

[Corporal Doug]

That right there explains why a large number of members, myself often included, have a real hard time with the thin blue shit expressed by some LEO's on this forum. We have real problems with no-knocks for minor shit, warrantless searches, wrong address raids and general "copitude". Bad cops and institutional ******** (the war on insert crime here....your or your institution's word made extremely obvious, you use the word WAR) have made you the enemies of peaceful relations. some claim it's "only a few bad actors" without waking up to the fact it is escalating every year and it isn't just the prevalence of the internet and 24 hour news cycle. It's not every cop.........yet but it seems to be heading that way. Yeah, we want you to catch the actual criminals, legally under the Constitution and you should be able to go home alive at night. But do not try to play the "officer safety" shit, cops aren't even in the top 10 or 15 most dangerous occupations in the US and as Sheriff Lewis said last year high speed chase crashes kill something like 3 times as many cops as do guns these days. My job is just as dangerous as yours but what can kill me is almost always invisible and odorless; 1.5KVDC-150KVDC or cryogens that expand at ratios like 694:1 and displace all the oxygen are no joke and you get exactly zero warning when it happens, no hinky or furtive behavior to tip you off.

Am I venting? Yep! Will I be a dick if you pull me over for a broken tail light? Nope. But the second you start fishing I go from nice cooperative guy to f*ck you, get a warrant.

I think a good part of the problem with the young ones is what I see in non-cop young ones, they think it's normal. People I work with younger than their late 30's wouldn't think of walking up to a cop and asking directions, to them cops are only there to arrest you and we're talking professionals like engineers and technicians.



See above, it's aimed right at you.



You'll likely get "I'd guess about 3/4 of a pot of coffee" or "Couple of sodas" if I'm feeling nice, you might also get "Nothing I shouldn't have been before driving" if your attitude smacks of dick.

A lot of you need a dose of Mayberry Andy.

I make no regrets about my ideals, if you don't like being asked questions then don't give me a reason to pull you over. Oh I forgot to add that if I ask that question it is usually because I suspect impairment otherwise, (such as driving habit like swerving).

Also I treat people with respect and politeness, no reason for an attitude.

 

[StanW]

Are police alerted if the driver has an HQL when they run a drivers license?

 

[dfens42]

Are police alerted if the driver has an HQL when they run a drivers license?

HQL I don't know.

They should not have a list of people with regulated firearms, but we all know they do.