Federal ghost gun regulations temporarily revived by Justice Alito

[King Chicken]

ATF's redefinition of "frames and receivers" to kill off 80% sales by calling something that could be made into a receiver, a receiver, along with kits that include all the parts needed to assemble a firearm using an 80% frame or receiver.

Oh yes. Ty for that. So, federally 80% aren't illegal but in MD they are?

 

[Allen65]

Oh yes. Ty for that. So, federally 80% aren't illegal but in MD they are?

The way I understand the Federal new reg being challenged is if the receiver blank is sold with a jig, parts, or plans for turning it into a functioning firearm, it's a firearm. Which is not what the actual statute defines as a firearm.

As for MD, the definitions are so ambiguous I've given up even trying to discern what they actually, and hope that LEOs will be just as confused and unwilling to charge if they aren't sure a law has sctually been broken.

 

[mpollan1]

At 6 decades on this rock I'm figuring ~20 more years. I have a feeling I'll be considered a felon before my departure due to this kind of shit. FJB

 

[King Chicken]

The way I understand the Federal new reg being challenged is if the receiver blank is sold with a jig, parts, or plans for turning it into a functioning firearm, it's a firearm. Which is not what the actual statute defines as a firearm.

As for MD, the definitions are so ambiguous I've given up even trying to discern what they actually, and hope that LEOs will be just as confused and unwilling to charge if they aren't sure a law has sctually been broken.

Well the LEOs aren't the ones charging rite? I do however keep seeing "ghost guns" in Bmore cop pics being paraded around...so that's why I assume they're illegal and would be charged if in possession of a unserliazed rifle...?
Wish I could sue just for all the time I've spent trying to discern the laws and staying updated. And I'm still confused.

 

[King Chicken]

Privately Made Firearms in Maryland

Last updated 3/3/23In 2022, the Maryland General Assembly passed HB425 and SB387, bills that criminalize the possession of unserialized firearms (aka "ghost guns" or "privately made firearms") starting on March 1st, 2023 (in effect now).HB425 and SB387 become effective in two parts:-Starting on...

www.marylandshallissue.org

 

[BurkeM]

Oh yes. Ty for that. So, federally 80% aren't illegal but in MD they are?

No.

 

[adit]

At 6 decades on this rock I'm figuring ~20 more years. I have a feeling I'll be considered a felon before my departure due to this kind of shit. FJB

Dude, they already consider you all of us one. MDS membership has its privileges....

 

[delaware_export]

As I understand it, it’s NOT just about 80%…

ar’s and many pistols are/may not be firearms under the strict legal definition of firearm, according the legal definition of receiver in the actual law

the upper / lower separately do not house all the parts to meet the definition. The full receiver must encompass the trigger, hammer, bolt. And maybe there is one other part… I may be missing

neither The upper nor lower contain all these parts in the AR and many pistols.

the atf has lost, or actually had to drop, cases because of this distinction.

hence the atf is pushing this “rule”

as a comparison, think how a BAR or AK or most SA shotguns have all the parts fit in one solid receiver. Which holds them all

 

[JohnnyE]

As I understand it, it’s NOT just about 80%…

ar’s and many pistols are/may not be firearms under the strict legal definition of firearm, according the legal definition of receiver in the actual law

the upper / lower separately do not house all the parts to meet the definition. The full receiver must encompass the trigger, hammer, bolt. And maybe there is one other part… I may be missing

neither The upper nor lower contain all these parts in the AR and many pistols.

the atf has lost, or actually had to drop, cases because of this distinction.

hence the atf is pushing this “rule”

as a comparison, think how a BAR or AK or most SA shotguns have all the parts fit in one solid receiver. Which holds them all

This is why the Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo case recently heard by SCOTUS may be so impactful. It appears the high court will rein in the Chevron Deference, the amount of "poetic license" agencies have when interpreting statutes.

 

[Allen65]

This is why the Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo case recently heard by SCOTUS may be so impactful. It appears the high court will rein in the Chevron Deference, the amount of "poetic license" agencies have when interpreting statutes.

Overturning Chevron is going to have some significant second order effects, too. Chevron has allowed Congress to become dysfunctional, a body for posturing for cameras rather than legislating, because Chevron allowed them to punt tough policy decisions to the Executive Branch. Same for the Judicial Branch: if the Executive was presumed correct, any plaintiff challenging a regulation had to meet a much higher defacto standard than preponderance of the evidence, allowing courts to avoid making tough calls.

Everyone's looking at the impact on Executive regulatory process, but the real impacts will be in the other branches. The Judiciary will end up with a heavier workload as an outcome as they're forced to give up their intellectual laziness that deference allows, but at least that's nothing that fundamentally upsets their processes and rules.

Congress, OTOH, is going to have to undergo fundamental change because legislating requires things like in-depth research of issues by staff, hard work of drafting dense bills that build nuanced solutions for intractable problems, and, most importantly, compromise in order to get things passed. Compromise is damn near impossible in the current polarized environment, where if you're even seen talking to a member of the opposite party, that fact will be used to primary you in your own party. And from what I understand, there are currently members of Congress who haven't introduced a single bill in their time there. It's like a McDonalds deep fryer operator never having successfully made a single batch of fries after a year and a half on the job. We elect and pay members of Congress to create policy legislation that serves the interests and will of the People, not to go rage-baiting on camera or social media to feed their narcissistic need for attention.

 

[River02]

Overturning Chevron is going to have some significant second order effects, too. Chevron has allowed Congress to become dysfunctional, a body for posturing for cameras rather than legislating, because Chevron allowed them to punt tough policy decisions to the Executive Branch. Same for the Judicial Branch: if the Executive was presumed correct, any plaintiff challenging a regulation had to meet a much higher defacto standard than preponderance of the evidence, allowing courts to avoid making tough calls.

Everyone's looking at the impact on Executive regulatory process, but the real impacts will be in the other branches. The Judiciary will end up with a heavier workload as an outcome as they're forced to give up their intellectual laziness that deference allows, but at least that's nothing that fundamentally upsets their processes and rules.

Congress, OTOH, is going to have to undergo fundamental change because legislating requires things like in-depth research of issues by staff, hard work of drafting dense bills that build nuanced solutions for intractable problems, and, most importantly, compromise in order to get things passed. Compromise is damn near impossible in the current polarized environment, where if you're even seen talking to a member of the opposite party, that fact will be used to primary you in your own party. And from what I understand, there are currently members of Congress who haven't introduced a single bill in their time there. It's like a McDonalds deep fryer operator never having successfully made a single batch of fries after a year and a half on the job. We elect and pay members of Congress to create policy legislation that serves the interests and will of the People, not to go rage-baiting on camera or social media to feed their narcissistic need for attention.

Well written-- great post

 

[JohnnyE]

Overturning Chevron is going to have some significant second order effects, too. Chevron has allowed Congress to become dysfunctional, a body for posturing for cameras rather than legislating, because Chevron allowed them to punt tough policy decisions to the Executive Branch. Same for the Judicial Branch: if the Executive was presumed correct, any plaintiff challenging a regulation had to meet a much higher defacto standard than preponderance of the evidence, allowing courts to avoid making tough calls.

Everyone's looking at the impact on Executive regulatory process, but the real impacts will be in the other branches. The Judiciary will end up with a heavier workload as an outcome as they're forced to give up their intellectual laziness that deference allows, but at least that's nothing that fundamentally upsets their processes and rules.

Congress, OTOH, is going to have to undergo fundamental change because legislating requires things like in-depth research of issues by staff, hard work of drafting dense bills that build nuanced solutions for intractable problems, and, most importantly, compromise in order to get things passed. Compromise is damn near impossible in the current polarized environment, where if you're even seen talking to a member of the opposite party, that fact will be used to primary you in your own party. And from what I understand, there are currently members of Congress who haven't introduced a single bill in their time there. It's like a McDonalds deep fryer operator never having successfully made a single batch of fries after a year and a half on the job. We elect and pay members of Congress to create policy legislation that serves the interests and will of the People, not to go rage-baiting on camera or social media to feed their narcissistic need for attention.

QFT.

There are scores of attorneys representing many very well-heeled industries looking at agency regulations that lack reasonable statutory authority. We are entering interesting times.

 

[rbird7282]

Overturning Chevron is going to have some significant second order effects, too. Chevron has allowed Congress to become dysfunctional, a body for posturing for cameras rather than legislating, because Chevron allowed them to punt tough policy decisions to the Executive Branch. Same for the Judicial Branch: if the Executive was presumed correct, any plaintiff challenging a regulation had to meet a much higher defacto standard than preponderance of the evidence, allowing courts to avoid making tough calls.

Everyone's looking at the impact on Executive regulatory process, but the real impacts will be in the other branches. The Judiciary will end up with a heavier workload as an outcome as they're forced to give up their intellectual laziness that deference allows, but at least that's nothing that fundamentally upsets their processes and rules.

Congress, OTOH, is going to have to undergo fundamental change because legislating requires things like in-depth research of issues by staff, hard work of drafting dense bills that build nuanced solutions for intractable problems, and, most importantly, compromise in order to get things passed. Compromise is damn near impossible in the current polarized environment, where if you're even seen talking to a member of the opposite party, that fact will be used to primary you in your own party. And from what I understand, there are currently members of Congress who haven't introduced a single bill in their time there. It's like a McDonalds deep fryer operator never having successfully made a single batch of fries after a year and a half on the job. We elect and pay members of Congress to create policy legislation that serves the interests and will of the People, not to go rage-baiting on camera or social media to feed their narcissistic need for attention.

Well stated!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[King Chicken]

No.

Uhh. So ,80% are legal in MD? Meaning unserliazed ARs are not subject to last year's ghost guns ban?

 

[Docster]

The way I understand the Federal new reg being challenged is if the receiver blank is sold with a jig, parts, or plans for turning it into a functioning firearm, it's a firearm. Which is not what the actual statute defines as a firearm.

As for MD, the definitions are so ambiguous I've given up even trying to discern what they actually, and hope that LEOs will be just as confused and unwilling to charge if they aren't sure a law has sctually been broken.

Most if not all won't. That's is the problem

 

[ironpony]

So I'm guessing the legal definition of "Revived" means four more years.


And a bump for King Chicken's post.

 

[BurkeM]

Uhh. So ,80% are legal in MD? Meaning unserliazed ARs are not subject to last year's ghost guns ban?

Perfectly legal, once completed and a Serial NUMBER has been engraved.

See details here:

Privately Made Firearms in Maryland

Last updated 3/3/23In 2022, the Maryland General Assembly passed HB425 and SB387, bills that criminalize the possession of unserialized firearms (aka "ghost guns" or "privately made firearms") starting on March 1st, 2023 (in effect now).HB425 and SB387 become effective in two parts:-Starting on...

www.marylandshallissue.org

In 2022, the Maryland General Assembly passed HB425 and SB387, bills that criminalize the possession of unserialized firearms (aka "ghost guns" or "privately made firearms") starting on March 1st, 2023 (in effect now).


HB425 and SB387 become effective in two parts:


-Starting on June 1, 2022, no firearm and no "unfinished frames and receivers" may be sold, purchased, or transferred in Maryland unless they have a serial number imprinted in accordance with federal law by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer. An "unfinished frame or receiver" is defined by the bills to mean "a forged, cast, printed, extruded or machine body or similar article that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may readily be completed, assembled, or converted to be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm."

The term "readily be completed, assembled, or converted" is defined in ATF Rule 2021r-05F and explained in the Department's Response. Find a summary from the ATF HERE. Section 3 of HB425 and SB387 expressly require that this Maryland law be construed to be "consistent" with these ATF rules and thus will cover whatever the ATF Rule defines as an article that can be "readily" completed, assembled, or converted into a functional firearm. Under the bills, a sale, purchase, or transfer of such an unserialized firearm or unserialized unfinished frame or receiver on or after June 1, 2022, is punishable by up to five years imprisonment and a $10,000 fine, per firearm. The ATF Rule is effective as of August 24, 2022. See 87 Fed. Reg. at 24652.


The ATF Rule goes into elaborate detail in defining the terms "readily," "frame" and "receiver." See 87 Fed. Reg. at 24734, amending 27 C.F.R. 478.11 (defining "readily" to mean "[a] process, action, or physical state that is fairly or reasonably efficient, quick, and easy, but not necessarily the most efficient, speediest, or easiest process, action, or physical state," and then goes on to provide a list of vague "factors" to be considered in applying this test), and 27 C.F.R. 478.12 (defining "frame" and receiver"). As an example, the ATF Rule expressly includes within its definition of a frame or receiver any "kit containing a partially complete or disassembled billet or blank of a frame or receiver that is sold, distributed, or possessed with a compatible jig or template is a frame or receiver, as a person with online instructions and common hand tools may readily complete or assemble the frame or receiver parts to function as a frame or receiver." 87 Fed. Reg. at 24739 amending 27 C.F.R. 478.12(c). Another example: "A billet or blank of an AR–15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver." (Id.). The ATF Rule provides other examples as well. If in doubt, read the ATF Rule closely and consult legal counsel. Again, the Maryland law is to be interpreted to be "consistent" with the ATF Rule, so if the item is a "frame" or a "receiver" or can be "readily" converted into a frame or receiver under the ATF Rule, then it is covered by the Maryland law. If the item is not covered by the ATF Rule, then it is likewise not covered by Maryland law.

-Starting on March 1, 2023, the bills will also ban the mere possession of every unserialized firearm or unfinished frame or receiver (as defined above). Firearms manufactured prior to October 22, 1968 (when the Gun Control Act of 1968 was signed), and antiques are exempted.

To retain possession, an owner must... get the item serialized:

1. the firearm and/or "unfinished frame or receiver" must be serialized in accordance with federal law by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer, however as of 8/24/22, the effective date of the Rule, gunsmiths can as well. See 87 Fed. Reg. at 24653 ("In addition, the rule finalizes the proposed amendments to the term “gunsmith” to include persons who engage in the business of identifying firearms for nonlicensees, thus ensuring greater access to professional marking services for PMFs."). This alternative merely restates existing law under which manufacturers and importers have been required to mark serial numbers since passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. See 18 U.S.C. § 923(i). Under this alternative, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the procedure and marking protocol established by the newly published ATF Rule, viz., the markings must comply with the depth, size, and content requirements of federal law and the manufacturer or importer making the markings must enter the firearm into its A&D books. See 87 Fed. Reg. at 24742, amending Section 478.92(a)(2). Those depth, size, and content requirements can be found at 87 Fed. Reg. at 24741-42, amending 27 C.F.R. 478.92(a)(1). A frame or a receiver marked in this manner by a manufacturer or importer need not be registered with the Maryland State Police.

 

[King Chicken]

Perfectly legal, once completed and a Serial NUMBER has been engraved.

See details here:

Privately Made Firearms in Maryland

Last updated 3/3/23In 2022, the Maryland General Assembly passed HB425 and SB387, bills that criminalize the possession of unserialized firearms (aka "ghost guns" or "privately made firearms") starting on March 1st, 2023 (in effect now).HB425 and SB387 become effective in two parts:-Starting on...

www.marylandshallissue.org

In 2022, the Maryland General Assembly passed HB425 and SB387, bills that criminalize the possession of unserialized firearms (aka "ghost guns" or "privately made firearms") starting on March 1st, 2023 (in effect now).


HB425 and SB387 become effective in two parts:


-Starting on June 1, 2022, no firearm and no "unfinished frames and receivers" may be sold, purchased, or transferred in Maryland unless they have a serial number imprinted in accordance with federal law by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer. An "unfinished frame or receiver" is defined by the bills to mean "a forged, cast, printed, extruded or machine body or similar article that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may readily be completed, assembled, or converted to be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm."

The term "readily be completed, assembled, or converted" is defined in ATF Rule 2021r-05F and explained in the Department's Response. Find a summary from the ATF HERE. Section 3 of HB425 and SB387 expressly require that this Maryland law be construed to be "consistent" with these ATF rules and thus will cover whatever the ATF Rule defines as an article that can be "readily" completed, assembled, or converted into a functional firearm. Under the bills, a sale, purchase, or transfer of such an unserialized firearm or unserialized unfinished frame or receiver on or after June 1, 2022, is punishable by up to five years imprisonment and a $10,000 fine, per firearm. The ATF Rule is effective as of August 24, 2022. See 87 Fed. Reg. at 24652.


The ATF Rule goes into elaborate detail in defining the terms "readily," "frame" and "receiver." See 87 Fed. Reg. at 24734, amending 27 C.F.R. 478.11 (defining "readily" to mean "[a] process, action, or physical state that is fairly or reasonably efficient, quick, and easy, but not necessarily the most efficient, speediest, or easiest process, action, or physical state," and then goes on to provide a list of vague "factors" to be considered in applying this test), and 27 C.F.R. 478.12 (defining "frame" and receiver"). As an example, the ATF Rule expressly includes within its definition of a frame or receiver any "kit containing a partially complete or disassembled billet or blank of a frame or receiver that is sold, distributed, or possessed with a compatible jig or template is a frame or receiver, as a person with online instructions and common hand tools may readily complete or assemble the frame or receiver parts to function as a frame or receiver." 87 Fed. Reg. at 24739 amending 27 C.F.R. 478.12(c). Another example: "A billet or blank of an AR–15 variant receiver without critical interior areas having been indexed, machined, or possessed with instructions, jigs, templates, equipment, or tools such that it may readily be completed is not a receiver." (Id.). The ATF Rule provides other examples as well. If in doubt, read the ATF Rule closely and consult legal counsel. Again, the Maryland law is to be interpreted to be "consistent" with the ATF Rule, so if the item is a "frame" or a "receiver" or can be "readily" converted into a frame or receiver under the ATF Rule, then it is covered by the Maryland law. If the item is not covered by the ATF Rule, then it is likewise not covered by Maryland law.

-Starting on March 1, 2023, the bills will also ban the mere possession of every unserialized firearm or unfinished frame or receiver (as defined above). Firearms manufactured prior to October 22, 1968 (when the Gun Control Act of 1968 was signed), and antiques are exempted.

To retain possession, an owner must... get the item serialized:

1. the firearm and/or "unfinished frame or receiver" must be serialized in accordance with federal law by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer, however as of 8/24/22, the effective date of the Rule, gunsmiths can as well. See 87 Fed. Reg. at 24653 ("In addition, the rule finalizes the proposed amendments to the term “gunsmith” to include persons who engage in the business of identifying firearms for nonlicensees, thus ensuring greater access to professional marking services for PMFs."). This alternative merely restates existing law under which manufacturers and importers have been required to mark serial numbers since passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. See 18 U.S.C. § 923(i). Under this alternative, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the procedure and marking protocol established by the newly published ATF Rule, viz., the markings must comply with the depth, size, and content requirements of federal law and the manufacturer or importer making the markings must enter the firearm into its A&D books. See 87 Fed. Reg. at 24742, amending Section 478.92(a)(2). Those depth, size, and content requirements can be found at 87 Fed. Reg. at 24741-42, amending 27 C.F.R. 478.92(a)(1). A frame or a receiver marked in this manner by a manufacturer or importer need not be registered with the Maryland State Police.

I appreciate the time and length of your response.

At the beginning you say "Perfectly legal, once completed and a Serial NUMBER has been engraved."

...but before completed or before a serial number it is what? The word "once" confuses me. From my understanding an 80% or 100% but unserliazed is illegal. It's not like you can get an 80% finish it and ask someone to serialize it?

Thanks again for the help in understanding.

 

[msinc]

Maybe I am wrong here but......It is my understanding that any "willing" {and not all of them are} FFL holder can assign a serial number based on their FFL number and the number in order of guns they have registered this way, to your 80% finished gun and register it. So, I make a lower and get some FFL holder to agree....he gives me a number to have engraved on the lower. Once done he runs it thru the state police registry and I am good???????

 

[BurkeM]

Once done he runs it thru the state police registry and I am good???????

There is no 'registry' to run it through. It was never transferred.