Do not use Sparks Firearms for FFL

[Name Taken]

It's rather simple...if doing a transfer isnt helping pay your bills...then dont offer the service.

If you dont want to field questions and "waste time" making small money then dont. But it makes little sense to be a dick, stupid, or charge a huge fee to do it.

There are plenty of IP's here who have no issues doing them and welcome them for a reasonable fee. A small amount will not do them or treat it as it's some kind of life altering hassle.

Oh and to Mr. Smarty Pants the ATF isnt going to issue a FFL for personal collection. Nor is MSP going to issue you the regulated permit for personal collection. Good effort though.

 

[airsporter]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

All I'm saying is that on-line gun retailers and gun auction sites have really hurt the Mom and Pop gun stores. Many of them are frustrated and are struggling to stay afloat.

So, say I want something and my small-time local FFL retailer doesn't have/can't get (pretty regular these days). So I find it online (e.g. gunbroker) and transfer. He gets $25 cash for 'being there' with no inventory or shipping expense. Win/win.

 

[Publius]

So, say I want something and my small-time local FFL retailer doesn't have/can't get (pretty regular these days). So I find it online (e.g. gunbroker) and transfer. He gets $25 cash for 'being there' with no inventory or shipping expense. Win/win.

My fellow shooting enthusiasts, this thread is sort of taxing my credulity. The suggestion of price caps for transfers, or the idea that $25 per transfer more than suffices, are completely erroneous in my view.

The small shop FFL I use has more than 500 firearms waiting approval. He is now using his wall to store sold firearms. Have you heard the expression "operating at capacity"? The guy is there until 10:00pm making sure all the paperwork has zero errors. The phone rings every couple of minutes. And then he finally answers a call, it is one more gun buyer asking whether the FFL will handle a Gunbroker transfer. And you think what, same price as usual "for being there"? You could argue: "He has more volume now, why should he increase prices?" Well, but now each new transfer adds a few minutes away from his family at night or on weekends. Most people charge more per hour (sometimes much more) for time away from family. "Oh but he could hire more people to help him". True, sometimes you can scale up the business, but sometimes you cannot. In fact some FFLs (the one I use is one example) are not just thinking of moving out of state by year end, they are already working on it. So if you are already working to close shop, why would you hire new people?

Even if you ignore the current huge demand for FFL services, online gun broker sites still are going to impact FFL transfer prices.

I am a huge fan of Gunbroker and of online shopping. But there is no doubt it represents a challenging change for FFLs running a shop. In the past if the FFL did not have something you wanted, you would special-order it from him and he would more or less make his usual margin. Transfers had limited impact on his business because of their small volume. Online auction sites clearly are changing that. There is no way FFLs can keep charging $25 per transfer like they used to.

FFLs are obviously losing the business of special-orders to online sites, but does not stop there. In the past a special-order could take weeks. They were for people determined to get a specific firearm. For most people, if the FFL shop had a close enough alternative to what they wanted, they would go with the alternative. But now, if you walk into a shop and it does not have what you want, you are less likely to buy the alternative available. Instead you may ask the FFL to handle your online purchase. It is not much hassle to order online, you are probably saving money compared to the price of the alternative, and you are getting exactly what you want. The shop just lost the usual gross margin of selling an alternative firearm to you.

On top of that, there is the problem of "showrooming", which is afflicting most brick and mortar retail shops. Showrooming means you use the show room of your local brick and mortar shop to check a product, then you shop online and save money, despite the added shipping costs. You can argue: "Wait, if my FFL does not have the gun I want, I am not doing showrooming in his store". True. But maybe you are doing the showrooming to another FFL shop that had the gun, like in a gun show for example. Then you use an FFL that does not have that exact gun to do the transfer of your online purchase. So your FFL handling the transfer is not the victim of showrooming, but another one where you handled the gun is. But your FFL is likewise victim of showrooming by other people who checked his guns but who are using other FFLs to handle online purchases. Net net, FFLs are handling transfers for the stuff they do not have while their inventory may take longer to sell. Gross margin again takes a hit. Are they going to keep charging $25 per transfer?

Last but not least, a few words against price caps on transfers. Want to see transfers cease to exist without any laws prohibiting them? Just put a price cap on them. Let's say for example you put a cap of $50. Many shops would stop doing them. The remaining shops would need to handle not just normal demand for transfers, but a higher demand because now their price is artificially low. Soon these shops would run out of inventory space for guns waiting approval and thus they would stop handling transfers. The shops still open to transfers would need to handle all the existing demand for the service, which means the demand on each of them would go sky-high. Soon those would also stop handling transfers.

BTW, I am not trying to condone Sparks Firearms behavior. My problem was with this talk of price caps and $25 transfers.

 

[GearDown]

Yeah I was going to use this Sparks guy once.. when i was buying my AK. He seemed legit at first.. yes he is a lawyer! His poor assistant knows little and has no power to help. He was supposed to fax his info to the GB.com seller so they can send my gun. I figured ok this guy knows what hes doing.. a week later I call the GB.com seller and they siad they never got the info. I call Sparks and the guy forgot or some shit! I siad F-that... I told the AK seller I am switching FFL's and I went with Horst & McCann.. that FFL treated me great! no problems at all and at the time they were close to my work!

DONT USE SPARKS! the guy does not give a shit. at least use a real gun shop not some moron that is a part time FFL!

Yeah, that's the impression I get. He just doesn't give a shit about transfers. I've been trying to get a hold of him for a week and he doesn't even return calls, and when I talk to his office assistant she has no idea what's going on. If you can't handle the business or can't provide the services as offered then get out of the business. I'm sure he probably makes more than enough money as a lawyer. I think transfers should be capped as well, maybe 35 dollars or so. If a company does 500 transfers that's nearly $18,000 extra income. That seems more than fair. If a company doesn't feel it's worth the cost of filling in some paperwork then don't do it. That will let the good FFLs with good customer service really stand out and profit from their efforts.

 

[raff696]

Yeah, that's the impression I get. He just doesn't give a shit about transfers. I've been trying to get a hold of him for a week and he doesn't even return calls, and when I talk to his office assistant she has no idea what's going on. If you can't handle the business or can't provide the services as offered then get out of the business. I'm sure he probably makes more than enough money as a lawyer. I think transfers should be capped as well, maybe 35 dollars or so. If a company does 500 transfers that's nearly $18,000 extra income. That seems more than fair. If a company doesn't feel it's worth the cost of filling in some paperwork then don't do it. That will let the good FFLs with good customer service really stand out and profit from their efforts.

yup I went with an FFL that treated my like a welcome customer!

 

[iH8DemLibz]

My fellow shooting enthusiasts, this thread is sort of taxing my credulity. The suggestion of price caps for transfers, or the idea that $25 per transfer more than suffices, are completely erroneous in my view.

The small shop FFL I use has more than 500 firearms waiting approval. He is now using his wall to store sold firearms. Have you heard the expression "operating at capacity"? The guy is there until 10:00pm making sure all the paperwork has zero errors. The phone rings every couple of minutes. And then he finally answers a call, it is one more gun buyer asking whether the FFL will handle a Gunbroker transfer. And you think what, same price as usual "for being there"? You could argue: "He has more volume now, why should he increase prices?" Well, but now each new transfer adds a few minutes away from his family at night or on weekends. Most people charge more per hour (sometimes much more) for time away from family. "Oh but he could hire more people to help him". True, sometimes you can scale up the business, but sometimes you cannot. In fact some FFLs (the one I use is one example) are not just thinking of moving out of state by year end, they are already working on it. So if you are already working to close shop, why would you hire new people?

Even if you ignore the current huge demand for FFL services, online gun broker sites still are going to impact FFL transfer prices.

I am a huge fan of Gunbroker and of online shopping. But there is no doubt it represents a challenging change for FFLs running a shop. In the past if the FFL did not have something you wanted, you would special-order it from him and he would more or less make his usual margin. Transfers had limited impact on his business because of their small volume. Online auction sites clearly are changing that. There is no way FFLs can keep charging $25 per transfer like they used to.

FFLs are obviously losing the business of special-orders to online sites, but does not stop there. In the past a special-order could take weeks. They were for people determined to get a specific firearm. For most people, if the FFL shop had a close enough alternative to what they wanted, they would go with the alternative. But now, if you walk into a shop and it does not have what you want, you are less likely to buy the alternative available. Instead you may ask the FFL to handle your online purchase. It is not much hassle to order online, you are probably saving money compared to the price of the alternative, and you are getting exactly what you want. The shop just lost the usual gross margin of selling an alternative firearm to you.

On top of that, there is the problem of "showrooming", which is afflicting most brick and mortar retail shops. Showrooming means you use the show room of your local brick and mortar shop to check a product, then you shop online and save money, despite the added shipping costs. You can argue: "Wait, if my FFL does not have the gun I want, I am not doing showrooming in his store". True. But maybe you are doing the showrooming to another FFL shop that had the gun, like in a gun show for example. Then you use an FFL that does not have that exact gun to do the transfer of your online purchase. So your FFL handling the transfer is not the victim of showrooming, but another one where you handled the gun is. But your FFL is likewise victim of showrooming by other people who checked his guns but who are using other FFLs to handle online purchases. Net net, FFLs are handling transfers for the stuff they do not have while their inventory may take longer to sell. Gross margin again takes a hit. Are they going to keep charging $25 per transfer?

Last but not least, a few words against price caps on transfers. Want to see transfers cease to exist without any laws prohibiting them? Just put a price cap on them. Let's say for example you put a cap of $50. Many shops would stop doing them. The remaining shops would need to handle not just normal demand for transfers, but a higher demand because now their price is artificially low. Soon these shops would run out of inventory space for guns waiting approval and thus they would stop handling transfers. The shops still open to transfers would need to handle all the existing demand for the service, which means the demand on each of them would go sky-high. Soon those would also stop handling transfers.

BTW, I am not trying to condone Sparks Firearms behavior. My problem was with this talk of price caps and $25 transfers.

Fantastic Post!

I could not have said it better myself.

Thank you for taking the time to expand on what I was saying.

Signed,

Ex-01 FFL Holder and Current 03 FFL Holder


P.S. Sometime us "Mr. Smarty Pants" posters know what we're talking about.

 

[PJDiesel]

If you can't handle the business or can't provide the services as offered then get out of the business.

I've been saying this for months now. As sad as it is to see a business close it's doors, some of these pricks need purged.

Yes,.... I'm speaking ill of gun shop owners.

 

[MDGolom]

why is there no limit on what a FFL can charge us to do this, or is there and no one enforces it? thats one reason i only try and use MDSP for this...
i don't understand how the current MD gun law thats still in effect can be changed by the FFL to a longer waiting time? isn't the FFL breaking the law keeping everyones gun longer then what the current law says..

i know i am just being a wise a$$ about all this B/S

I believe Maryland caps what an FFL can charge to facilitate a face-to-face transfer. In cases where the FFL is receiving the firearm it's a free market and they can charge what they want. It's scummy that this guy just arbitrarily changes their price and holds the gun hostage.

I know many IPs here have been raising their prices since they're required to secure them longer (several months instead of a week) with the MSP backlog. I was looking for an FFL to handle a transfer of a stripped lower and found prices from $41 up to $85.

 

[ob1murry]

The small shop FFL I use has more than 500 firearms waiting approval. He is now using his wall to store sold firearms. Have you heard the expression "operating at capacity"? The guy is there until 10:00pm making sure all the paperwork has zero errors. The phone rings every couple of minutes. And then he finally answers a call, it is one more gun buyer asking whether the FFL will handle a Gunbroker transfer. And you think what, same price as usual "for being there"? You could argue: "He has more volume now, why should he increase prices?" Well, but now each new transfer adds a few minutes away from his family at night or on weekends. Most people charge more per hour (sometimes much more) for time away from family. "Oh but he could hire more people to help him". True, sometimes you can scale up the business, but sometimes you cannot. In fact some FFLs (the one I use is one example) are not just thinking of moving out of state by year end, they are already working on it. So if you are already working to close shop, why would you hire new people?

I don't mean to sound like an *******, but's that is called "having a job". We all have extra time taken away from family for work, and you are right, we usually do charge extra for doing it. But I can hardly imagine my boss being cool with it if I suddenly demanded 2x pay for overtime instead of 1.5x, then 3x the time after that.

If an FFL is complaining about the amount of paperwork involved and people calling in to have guns transferred, they are in the wrong business, they knew what they could potentially be in for.

The fact of the matter is that after SB281 becomes law, it's likely that many of these shops will struggle (as you already claimed), so the way I see it they have two choices:

1. Take in as much business as you can right now, and hope that the money you make/repeat customers you earn are enough to get you through the tough times ahead.
2. Risk losing the business you worked hard to get running, all because you are annoyed someone bought a gun somewhere else and had the audacity to ask you to provide a service you advertised at a reasonable price.

I know which one I would pick.

I don't believe anyone was making the argument that FFL's do not have a right and/or cause to raise their transfer prices, simply that if you do not want to do them, just say that, and that the FFL's raising their prices through the roof are being a little ridiculous.

 

[R81]

It's a free country, and FFL's should be able to set their own fees. We have a right to go elsewhere, if we don't like the price. To view it as a simple job taking minimal time and minimal responsibility is naive in my opinion. I usually pay $50 total, and I feel my FFL earns his payment.

 

[JMangle]

Simple answer -- Call Bollinger, mention MDS or JMangle and see what they charge.

I think their no-discount rate is $40, and they used to offer a $5 or so discount to MDS.

http://www.bollingergunsmithing.com/

And I'm all for letting a business charge what the want, but their prices should be clearly posted and agreed upon beforehand.

 

[cww]

It's a free country, and FFL's should be able to set their own fees. We have a right to go elsewhere, if we don't like the price. To view it as a simple job taking minimal time and minimal responsibility is naive in my opinion. I usually pay $50 total, and I feel my FFL earns his payment.

true but it is not ok to say the price is X and then when your gun gets there and go to pick it up the price has suddenly jumped to 2X as the OP is implying happend

 

[mig201]

A1 Uniforms

A 1 Uniforms in Hyattsville are great. You can track them down here on mdshooters

 

[mig201]

BUY LOCAL

I would prefer to buy locally, but have still been using gunbroker. I have no problem with what the FFLs charge, but they should be upfront about it. Each time I go to the FFLs I use, I usually buy something else from their inventory, ammo, knives, etc...

 

[Dudecat]

Hey GearDown - It will be interesting to see if Sparks Firearms releases transfers now that the MSP is communicating their new position on the eighth day release. I too have a handgun being held hostage at Sparks Firearms and have not gotten a call back sincce the SHTF over the weekend regarding MSP and this "communication to FFL's".

 

[TheRealSundance]

MY FFL charges $20 or $25. Can't remember but will see him this week for a transfer.