Defensive gun use in Halethorpe

[cryptoman]

I think I get where you're coming from: In this scenario, there's no risk of me going to jail if I stay in my house. And there's no risk of the perp being injured or dying if I allow him to steal my property.

Maybe it's a stretch, but this philosophy reminds me of arguments made against LEOs initiating arrests when the use of deadly force is not warranted. When it goes bad there are cries of, "He was killed for speeding." No, he was killed because he resisted arrest and threatened an officer's life. If the perp decides to escalate the situation, it's not the officer's fault when he has to use deadly force against an elevated deadly threat. Similarly, if a thief chooses to attack me on my property, rather than stop or run away, what happens next is not my fault.

That's a very good point.


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[redeemed.man]

I think I get where you're coming from: In this scenario, there's no risk of me going to jail if I stay in my house. And there's no risk of the perp being injured or dying if I allow him to steal my property.

Maybe it's a stretch, but this philosophy reminds me of arguments made against LEOs initiating arrests when the use of deadly force is not warranted. When it goes bad there are cries of, "He was killed for speeding." No, he was killed because he resisted arrest and threatened an officer's life. If the perp decides to escalate the situation, it's not the officer's fault when he has to use deadly force against an elevated deadly threat. Similarly, if a thief chooses to attack me on my property, rather than stop or run away, what happens next is not my fault.

Agreed

That's a very good point.



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[Blaster229]

You'll see a lot of people walking around with red fingers and backsides of hands after a FOF class before they break the habit.

No. People's hands get shot because they are all shooting center mass at the other shooter, where coincidentally everyone is pressed out from the chest. Hands get shot.
Out of default, our head shots get better because we got tired of having mangled fingers and hands. But that's just my very limited experience over the course of a career.

 

[cowboy321]

A States attorney here may decide that there was no crime by the gun owner. He may decide that the crime was illegal discharge of a firearm. He may decide that this was a felony second degree assault with a dangerous weapon.
I have no prediction, but hope this just goes away. It would in Texas. But we live in Maryland...

 

[Mike]

I think Blaster's point is he didn't go outside to protect his property. he went outside to investigate and took the firearm in case he needed to defend himself.

He did, and it seems like a good shoot because the perp attacked him. Had he shot the perp without being attacked it would be different.

That isn't what happened.

Maybe because it was still dark out and the suspect could only see the light from the WML?

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it matters that the guy took the light [which just happened to be mounted on the rifle]. I agree with the other assessments on running the guy off, that he did not just go outside with his gun blazing away. The homeowner was attacked, and injured in the attack. I think the homeowner is lucky he got off a non fatal shot that hit the perp. and was not overpowered and shot himself. I think that the homeowner was not mentally prepared to shoot the perp. which was another mistake, but may be the one that keeps him out of hot water in this F'd up state. I hope the perp. is not part of some Russian or other gang that comes after the homeowner.

 

[Applehd]

...

...you don't know the homeowner...

 

[redeemed.man]

...you don't know the homeowner...

you do???

 

[28Shooter]

This incident rang home to my wife and now she doesn't ask me why I stand watch when she gets in her car in the morning.

 

[pbharvey]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it matters that the guy took the light [which just happened to be mounted on the rifle]. I agree with the other assessments on running the guy off, that he did not just go outside with his gun blazing away. The homeowner was attacked, and injured in the attack. I think the homeowner is lucky he got off a non fatal shot that hit the perp. and was not overpowered and shot himself. I think that the homeowner was not mentally prepared to shoot the perp. which was another mistake, but may be the one that keeps him out of hot water in this F'd up state. I hope the perp. is not part of some Russian or other gang that comes after the homeowner.

On the other hand what are the ramifications of pointing a gun at someone? Is it some form of assault or reckless endangerment?
I'm not a fan of a flashlight with a gun attached to it, I prefer a gun with a flashlight attached.

 

[daNattyFatty]

On the other hand what are the ramifications of pointing a gun at someone? Is it some form of assault or reckless endangerment?

I'm not a fan of a flashlight with a gun attached to it, I prefer a gun with a flashlight attached.

All depends on the articulation and the totality of the circumstances. Though, there would usually need to be a discharge for reckless endangerment to be considered.


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[pbharvey]

All depends on the articulation and the totality of the circumstances. Though, there would usually need to be a discharge for reckless endangerment to be considered.


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Right, I was thinking more along the lines of you hear a noise outside and take your gun/flashlight combo only to find out it's the paperboy. Meanwhile you've pointed a gun at the guy.

 

[swinokur]

Putting someone in fear and having the means to act on it is the very definition of simple assault.

 

[clandestine]

Sure seems like some want the homeowner to face charges.

I think many people own guns as a security blanket.

 

[Applehd]

Sure seems like some want the homeowner to face charges.

I think many people own guns as a security blanket.

I made this very same comment at the dinner table last evening after reading some of the comments here. For those who may find yourselves in the homeowner's situation(hopefully never)... remember to cower in a corner and call 911... and if you confront the perp.... tell him to STOP... if the perp does not stop when you say so... remind him/her that you will say STOP again if they continue... in the meantime, some actually have the BALLS to act according to the situation at hand... either stand and fight... or run and hide... your choice...

 

[PO2012]

I think this is not going to be a cut and dry case of self defense. In Maryland if you are outside your house (a car is not considered an extension of your home) you have a duty "to retreat or avoid danger if such means were within your power and consistent with your safety."

There is no duty to retreat in Maryland when an individual is attempting to rob you, it is one of the exceptions to the retreat requirement. Other exceptions would include being a Police Officer making a lawful arrest and being unable to safely retreat. Using or threatening to use force in order to take property which does not belong to you or to retain control of said property after having taken it transforms larceny into robbery. This individual was attempting to steal the victim's car or items contained therein. When confronted by the property owner he stabbed him with a sharp object. The property owner is therefore entitled to discharge his weapon in self defense to terminate the assault and is allowed to meet force with force rather than retreat because the threatened use of force converted the crime from larceny to robbery.

There is absolutely nothing on the books that requires you to allow criminals to steal from you. You have every right to confront them and to demand the return of your property. If you attempt to remove the property and face violent resistance then the crime becomes a robbery and any duty to retreat which may have existed is removed. You are authorized to meet force with force not because property was taken but because violence was used to take the property or to retain the property. In certain counties, the State's Attorney's office will only charge criminals who assault shopkeepers and ordinary citizens while stealing with second degree assault and theft. Those SAOs are absolutely, 100% wrong. Theft + assault = robbery. Theft + armed assault = robbery with a dangerous weapon (armed robbery). The proper charge and the right of citizens to use force (to include deadly force where necessary) is clearly established in both statute and case law and is in no way, shape or form a matter for debate. The fact that it even has to be discussed is shameful.

 

[ted76]

I made this very same comment at the dinner table last evening after reading some of the comments here. For those who may find yourselves in the homeowner's situation(hopefully never)... remember to cower in a corner and call 911... and if you confront the perp.... tell him to STOP... if the perp does not stop when you say so... remind him/her that you will say STOP again if they continue... in the meantime, some actually have the BALLS to act according to the situation at hand... either stand and fight... or run and hide... your choice...

That reminds me of the way the Police act in in the movie "Demolition Man"

 

[GeorgeSSR]

Sure seems like some want the homeowner to face charges.

I think many people own guns as a security blanket.

I'll be 100% honest here: I'd hate to be in this guy's shoes, but if this is a good shoot I'd also like more legal precedence on the books.

 

[Dieselfool]

If the home owner remains uncharged, or if is charged, and not found guilty. I wounder if this could help set a precedent as far as self defense laws in this state. Possibly bringing more support and justification to HB252.

http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmMain.aspx?id=hb0252&stab=01&pid=billpage&tab=subject3&ys=2016rs

(
Synopsis: Providing that a person is justified in using nondeadly force under specified circumstances; providing that a person is justified in using deadly force under specified circumstances; providing that a person who is justified in using force is immune from criminal prosecution; etc.
Analysis: Fiscal and Policy Note
All Sponsors: Delegates Cluster, Arentz, Beitzel, Bromwell, Conaway, Glass, Grammer, Hornberger, Kipke, Krebs, Long, McComas, McDonough, McKay, Metzgar, Morgan, Morhaim, O'Donnell, Otto, Reilly, Rey, Rose, Shoemaker, Vogt, B. Wilson, and C. Wilson
Additional Facts: Introduced in a prior session as: HB0589 Session: 2006 Regular Session
Bill File Type: Regular
Effective Date(s): October 1, 2016
Committee(s):
Judiciary View Committee Hearing
Broad Subject(s): Criminal Law - Procedure
Real Property
Narrow Subject(s): Abduction
Crimes and Punishments -see also- Penalties and Sentnc; etc.
Hijacking
Liability -see also- Good Samaritan
Self Defense
Trespass
Statutes: Article - Criminal Law
(2-211))

 

[gorckat]

I made this very same comment at the dinner table last evening after reading some of the comments here. For those who may find yourselves in the homeowner's situation(hopefully never)... remember to cower in a corner and call 911... and if you confront the perp.... tell him to STOP... if the perp does not stop when you say so... remind him/her that you will say STOP again if they continue... in the meantime, some actually have the BALLS to act according to the situation at hand... either stand and fight... or run and hide... your choice...

Several years ago when all I had was a shotgun, my daughter saw someone in our yard late at night and it sounded like he might have been trying to get in our shed. I ran upstairs and loaded up, called the local precinct and looking out the window, he was gone.

It was a rattling experience, and made me aware of how little my wife, daughter and I had discussed what to do when SHTF. We had some low level talks after that, about what to say to the 911 operator and where to go in the house, etc.

My wife recently did a self-defense pepper spray class, and my daughter and I will be doing a 8 hour home defense class together. I've also been listening to a weekly podcast lately about self-defense gun use.

Pointing a gun, let alone pulling the trigger, is only one small part of an incident. Giving commands, assessing situation, being mentally prepared to call 911, where do you put your gun, etc...

I only know I still have a lot to learn, no matter how many articles or podcasts or whatever I read/listen to.

 

[Applehd]

...

A good defense is where education and application intersect... fate is what puts you there in the first place.