Can you load .38 bullets in a 9mm case?

[Cowboy T]

Some 9mm Para guns, like certain Rugers, actually do like .357" cast bullets. It really depends on the specific gun's chamber and barrel diameter.

 

[Dead Eye]

Unless you are a Mechanical Engineer, specifying in gun design, or a long-time, advanced gunsmith, or reloader, and thus understand all of the variables, and how they effect one another, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[trickg]

Unless you are a Mechanical Engineer, specifying in gun design, or a long-time, advanced gunsmith, or reloader, and thus understand all of the variables, and how they effect one another, I wouldn't recommend it.

So then tell me how you KNOW when you buy 9mm bullets that they are exactly .356 or how you KNOW that .38/.357 bullets are exactly .357?

Again, there is variance up to two one-thousandths of an inch in bullets anyway depending on whether you shoot lead or jacketed.

It's always been my understanding that 9mm and 38/357 were the same diameter, and to the naked eye there is no difference - just 1/1000th of an inch - you'd need a micrometer to tell.

I seriously doubt it would make a difference - reloading, especially fast production of automatic handgun loads on a progressive press, is not an exact science anyway. You'll have variance in powder charge, you'll have variance in OAL, and yeah, you'll probably have some variance in bullet diameter, even in bullets that are supposed to be the "same," but it's all acceptable variance for practical purposes.

Have we forgotten that lead - the core of jacketed bullets, obturates under pressure?

 

[j8064]

I've watched this thread off and on today. Reality is, folks do very dumb things. Please load the appropriate diameter bullets for the caliber and firearm in which you intend to fire the cartridge.

The entire notion ranks up there with, "Hey, hold my beer and watch this...".

Personally, I'd much rather not be anywhere near you on the range if you intentionally do very dumb stuff. If you want to experiment, there are plenty of wide open spaces far away from me, mine and my friends.

Have at it. Knock yourself out. Let us know how it works out for you. Just don't be anywhere near me when you try.

 

[Dead Eye]

So then tell me how you KNOW when you buy 9mm bullets that they are exactly .356 or how you KNOW that .38/.357 bullets are exactly .357?

Again, there is variance up to two one-thousandths of an inch in bullets anyway depending on whether you shoot lead or jacketed.

It's always been my understanding that 9mm and 38/357 were the same diameter, and to the naked eye there is no difference - just 1/1000th of an inch - you'd need a micrometer to tell.

I seriously doubt it would make a difference - reloading, especially fast production of automatic handgun loads on a progressive press, is not an exact science anyway. You'll have variance in powder charge, you'll have variance in OAL, and yeah, you'll probably have some variance in bullet diameter, even in bullets that are supposed to be the "same," but it's all acceptable variance for practical purposes.

Have we forgotten that lead - the core of jacketed bullets, obturates under pressure?

.38's and .357's ARE the same. When they developed the .357, they couldn't call it a .38 (case diameter) because the .38 still existed. Instead, they called it a .357 (projectile diameter) which is the same as the .38. The only difference, is the case length of the .357 is longer.

Yes, I agree in that the word you are searching for, the "difference" if you will, in engineering terms is called "tolerance". But, as I stated previously, you would have to have intimate knowledge of, and understand the acceptible tolerances and interference fits associated with the diameters of the rounds, chamber and barrel, as well as, the bursting pressure of both the barrel and chamber. Specifically how much pressure the charge of the round would develop as it pushed the round out of the barrel, at a velocity prohibitive of developing those bursting pressures, hence creating a pipe bomb and having it all blow up in your face.

If you don't understand all of that, emphatically, walk away...

 

[Dead Eye]

I've watched this thread off and on today. Reality is, folks do very dumb things. Please load the appropriate diameter bullets for the caliber and firearm in which you intend to fire the cartridge.

The entire notion ranks up there with, "Hey, hold my beer and watch this...".

Personally, I'd much rather not be anywhere near you on the range if you intentionally do very dumb stuff. If you want to experiment, there are plenty of wide open spaces far away from me, mine and my friends.

Have at it. Knock yourself out. Let us know how it works out for you. Just don't be anywhere near me when you try.

+ 10,000

 

[trickg]

.38's and .357's ARE the same. When they developed the .357, they couldn't call it a .38 (case diameter) because the .38 still existed. Instead, they called it a .357 (projectile diameter) which is the same as the .38. The only difference, is the case length of the .357 is longer.

Yes, I agree in that the word you are searching for, the "difference" if you will, in engineering terms is called "tolerance". But, as I stated previously, you would have to have intimate knowledge of, and understand the acceptible tolerances and interference fits associated with the diameters of the rounds, chamber and barrel, as well as, the bursting pressure of both the barrel and chamber. Specifically how much pressure the charge of the round would develop as it pushed the round out of the barrel, at a velocity prohibitive of developing those bursting pressures, hence creating a pipe bomb and having it all blow up in your face.

If you don't understand all of that, emphatically, walk away...

Dude, seriously I don't need the history lesson, I don't need the lesson on the fact that the ".38" is actually .357, and I don't need an English lesson - the word I used, variance, is the correct word. I know exactly what I'm saying here. Go back and re-read what I posted - you'll probably catch it second time.

I'm also not arguing best practices - apparently you seem to think I am, and I'm sorry that you missed it.

What I'm arguing is that those 9mm bullets you are loading aren't all going to be .356. If you mic them, you'll find some that come in at .355 and some that come in at .357. It's 1/1000th of an inch. A strand of blond hair comes in between 1/500th and 1/1500th of an inch - some people have more crud than that in their barrel at the end of a day at the range.

 

[Dead Eye]

Dude, seriously I don't need the history lesson, I don't need the lesson on the fact that the ".38" is actually .357, and I don't need an English lesson - the word I used, variance, is the correct word. I know exactly what I'm saying here. Go back and re-read what I posted - you'll probably catch it second time.

I'm also not arguing best practices - apparently you seem to think I am, and I'm sorry that you missed it.

What I'm arguing is that those 9mm bullets you are loading aren't all going to be .356. If you mic them, you'll find some that come in at .355 and some that come in at .357. It's 1/1000th of an inch. A strand of blond hair comes in between 1/500th and 1/1500th of an inch - some people have more crud than that in their barrel at the end of a day at the range.

Dude, seriously the word is called "tolerance", which is how to correctly state, in engineering terms, that amount of variability for which you describe. Yes, there will be an acceptible tolerance, given the loads that are developed for any particular round, via the interference fit that is developed between it and the barrel. The big question is, what is that acceptible tolerance range? What you are describing is commonly known as acceptible manufacturing tolerance limits. If the acceptible manufacturing tolerance limits exceed the acceptible tolerance range for that give barrel's developed bursting pressure, thus creating a pipe bomb, KABLEWY! Do you know what that is? Yes, it would require mic'ing the round, the bore, and the chamber. Plus you'd have to calculate the bursting pressure of the barrel for that particular thickness and material type, understanding the dynamic load and how it effects the velocity of the round out the end of the barrel, thus what internal pressure would be built up over time, and then with a margin of safety, ensure that the internal pressure develped is less than the bursting pressure. I understand it ALL TOO WELL.

Oh, BTW, did I divulge the fact that I AM a Mechanical Engineer, and I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot poll?

 

[A_J]

You most certainly can in some instances use a lead bullet intended for .38 in your 9mm after you slug the bore and size the bullet appropriately. Lee actually markets a particular 105 gr SWC bullet mold for making both 9mm and .38/.357 projectiles. Not too many lead bullet designs I am aware of have the proper weight and shape to be optimal in both weapons, but it isn't an impossiblity and is perfectly safe when properly done.

Heck, my 124 grain 9mm mold drops bullets with my alloy at about .358/.359 and 127 grains; I wouldn't hesitate for an instant to use them in a .38 special load if I wanted a bullet that light.

 

[Dead Eye]

You most certainly can in some instances use a lead bullet intended for .38 in your 9mm after you slug the bore and size the bullet appropriately. Lee actually markets a particular 105 gr SWC bullet mold for making both 9mm and .38/.357 projectiles. Not too many lead bullet designs I am aware of have the proper weight and shape to be optimal in both weapons, but it isn't an impossiblity and is perfectly safe when properly done.

Heck, my 124 grain 9mm mold drops bullets with my alloy at about .358/.359 and 127 grains; I wouldn't hesitate for an instant to use them in a .38 special load if I wanted a bullet that light.

Sounds like someone already did the math, "after you slug the bore and size the bullet appropriately", hence mic the round and the barrel. Having knowledge of such, would you have ventured of on a whim (been the first to try it), had you not such knowledge?

 

[BFMIN]

I AM a Mechanical Engineer, and I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot poll?

I believe it's pelt P-O-L-E.
"Never give an engineer a sharp, or pointy object."

 

[Dead Eye]

I believe it's pelt P-O-L-E.
"Never give an engineer a sharp, or pointy object."

Thank you Mr. Englis Major.

 

[A_J]

Sounds like someone already did the math, "after you slug the bore and size the bullet appropriately", hence mic the round and the barrel. Having knowledge of such, would you have ventured of on a whim (been the first to try it), had you not such knowledge?

Irrelevant question; I have said knowledge. What are you driving towards? OP asked if you can interchange 9mm and 38 bullets, the answer is yes sometimes you can.

 

[pop-gunner]

I believe it's pelt P-O-L-E.
"Never give an engineer a sharp, or pointy object."

Now that's some funny $hit right there...

So If I was a NEW reloader and I had some 158gr lead bullets should I load them in my 9mm?
Say these are Penn bullets.
Realizing they may be .357,.358,.359, or .360....
Penn makes all three...
Should I try them in my 9mm?
Knowing that bullets from the same batch can deviate .001 depending just on the temp.

The answer to all of the above is NO!!!!!
You may get away with it for a while but sooner or later it's gonna bite you and it's gonna be a big bite when it happens.

 

[Dead Eye]

Irrelevant question; I have said knowledge. What are you driving towards? OP asked if you can interchange 9mm and 38 bullets, the answer is yes sometimes you can.

The idea is that IF you have knowledge, and I'm not doubting your knowledge of such, but if anyone didn't have that knowledge would one attempt to try it on their own?

I know I wouldn't.

 

[trickg]

Dude, seriously the word is called "tolerance", which is how to correctly state, in engineering terms, that amount of variability for which you describe. Yes, there will be an acceptible tolerance, given the loads that are developed for any particular round, via the interference fit that is developed between it and the barrel. The big question is, what is that acceptible tolerance range? What you are describing is commonly known as acceptible manufacturing tolerance limits. If the acceptible manufacturing tolerance limits exceed the acceptible tolerance range for that give barrel's developed bursting pressure, thus creating a pipe bomb, KABLEWY! Do you know what that is? Yes, it would require mic'ing the round, the bore, and the chamber. Plus you'd have to calculate the bursting pressure of the barrel for that particular thickness and material type, understanding the dynamic load and how it effects the velocity of the round out the end of the barrel, thus what internal pressure would be built up over time, and then with a margin of safety, ensure that the internal pressure develped is less than the bursting pressure. I understand it ALL TOO WELL.

Oh, BTW, did I divulge the fact that I AM a Mechanical Engineer, and I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot poll?

A mechanical engineer that misspelled "acceptable" every place in your post above - wonderful.

var·i·ance
   /ˈvɛəriəns/ Show Spelled[vair-ee-uhns] Show IPA
–noun
1. the state, quality, or fact of being variable, divergent, different, or anomalous.
2. an instance of varying; difference; discrepancy.

I'm not talking about tolerance - I'm talking about the difference, i.e., VARIANCE, between bullets out of the same box or batch. There will be some - some will weigh slightly more or less, some will be slightly longer or shorter, and yes, some will be slightly larger or smaller in diameter. The amount of VARIANCE, depends on the the amount of TOLERANCE allowed in the manufacturing process.

[tol-er-uhns] Show IPA
–noun
.... (skipping to the pertinent portion of the definition)
6.
Machinery .
a. the permissible range of variation (hello VARIANCE?) in a dimension of an object. (such as 9mm bullets?) Compare allowance ( def. 8 ) .
b. the permissible variation of an object or objects in some characteristic such as hardness, weight, or quantity. (and possibly diameter?)

One describes the permissible range of variation, and one is the variation itself.

Geeze - I feel like I'm teaching 4th grade vocabulary here.

Why don't we just address the original question of the thread: Can 9mm be loaded with bullets made for .38/.357?

Yes. And no.

It depends on the bullets and it depends on the barrel of the gun. People have done it. People still do it. However, some 9mm barrels are larger than others and some .38 slugs are smaller than others. The people who do it recommend loading down to account for the slightly higher gas pressure that a tighter bullet will cause.

That's the answer - google it. You'll find the same thing I did.

 

[Dogabutila]

I've heard of people doing it, but they were all experienced reloaders who liked to experiment.

I don't reload, and I wouldnt bother. I don't believe in a magic bullet and I'll just practice with regular ammo as much as I can.

 

[Dead Eye]

A mechanical engineer that misspelled "acceptable" every place in your post above - wonderful.

var·i·ance
   /ˈvɛəriəns/ Show Spelled[vair-ee-uhns] Show IPA
–noun
1. the state, quality, or fact of being variable, divergent, different, or anomalous.
2. an instance of varying; difference; discrepancy.

I'm not talking about tolerance - I'm talking about the difference, i.e., VARIANCE, between bullets out of the same box or batch. There will be some - some will weigh slightly more or less, some will be slightly longer or shorter, and yes, some will be slightly larger or smaller in diameter. The amount of VARIANCE, depends on the the amount of TOLERANCE allowed in the manufacturing process.

[tol-er-uhns] Show IPA
–noun
.... (skipping to the pertinent portion of the definition)
6.
Machinery .
a. the permissible range of variation (hello VARIANCE?) in a dimension of an object. (such as 9mm bullets?) Compare allowance ( def. 8 ) .
b. the permissible variation of an object or objects in some characteristic such as hardness, weight, or quantity. (and possibly diameter?)

One describes the permissible range of variation, and one is the variation itself.

Geeze - I feel like I'm teaching 4th grade vocabulary here.

Why don't we just address the original question of the thread: Can 9mm be loaded with bullets made for .38/.357?

Yes. And no.

It depends on the bullets and it depends on the barrel of the gun. People have done it. People still do it. However, some 9mm barrels are larger than others and some .38 slugs are smaller than others. The people who do it recommend loading down to account for the slightly higher gas pressure that a tighter bullet will cause.

That's the answer - google it. You'll find the same thing I did.

Here we go with the troll-like rant... The fact that I spell or mis-spell improperly has nothing to do with you incorrectly using the term "variance", when the proper term, THROUGHOUT INDUSTRY for that variance is called "tolerance" - period. But just for you....

As you can see, and what I attempted to explain, is that it is not as cut and dried as you may think. It depends on a whole lot of stuff (called variables) to include variances (really called tolerances) that one has to first be familiar with (have working knowledge of) in order to understand. Otherwise, one gets their head blowed off!

There, maybe you can understand that.

 

[trickg]

It's not a troll-like rant - it's pointing out simple usage and vocabulary of the English language, and as you can see from my post above with the dictionary definitions, I was 100% accurate in what I was saying. I think you may be confused about which term means what, regardless of what you think is the industry standard term because there is a subtle difference between the words variance and tolerance, and where and how they should be used. Forgive me if I revert back to the dictionary to let me know when and where they should be properly used.

The problem with people like you is that you run around with this idea that you know more than everyone else, and you'll go to great lengths to try to prove that point. Rather than addressing the content of my posts, which are 100% accurate and address your nasty comments toward me point by point, you instead revert to calling me a troll, which I'm definitely not - go back and read the other stuff I've posted here.

You came on here all doom-and-gloom about the idea of using bullets created for .38/.357 in a 9mm as if it is something that shouldn't even be thought about in a nightmare, when in fact people do it - it might not be a widespread practice, but it is done by hand loaders across the nation. My argument was never one saying that I would do it - rather, it was to point out that it could in fact be done, and likely wasn't nearly as dangerous as you seem to think it is, which it isn't - a fact evidenced by a google search that turns up postings on other forums of people doing just that.

For the record, I load out of manuals, and within tolerances (note: correct usage of the word "tolerance") listed within those manuals for specific calibers, and bullet weights and types.

I think sometimes people confuse a post thinking that the poster has a personal stake in the matter - I don't have a stake in this, except for to point out actual practical information without an air of superiority shrouded in vague posts that make it seem like I know more than I do.

 

[Dead Eye]

It's not a troll-like rant - it's pointing out simple usage and vocabulary of the English language, and as you can see from my post above with the dictionary definitions, I was 100% accurate in what I was saying. I think you may be confused about which term means what, regardless of what you think is the industry standard term because there is a subtle difference between the words variance and tolerance, and where and how they should be used. Forgive me if I revert back to the dictionary to let me know when and where they should be properly used.

The problem with people like you is that you run around with this idea that you know more than everyone else, and you'll go to great lengths to try to prove that point. Rather than addressing the content of my posts, which are 100% accurate and address your nasty comments toward me point by point, you instead revert to calling me a troll, which I'm definitely not - go back and read the other stuff I've posted here.

You came on here all doom-and-gloom about the idea of using bullets created for .38/.357 in a 9mm as if it is something that shouldn't even be thought about in a nightmare, when in fact people do it - it might not be a widespread practice, but it is done by hand loaders across the nation. My argument was never one saying that I would do it - rather, it was to point out that it could in fact be done, and likely wasn't nearly as dangerous as you seem to think it is, which it isn't - a fact evidenced by a google search that turns up postings on other forums of people doing just that.

For the record, I load out of manuals, and within tolerances (note: correct usage of the word "tolerance") listed within those manuals for specific calibers, and bullet weights and types.

I think sometimes people confuse a post thinking that the poster has a personal stake in the matter - I don't have a stake in this, except for to point out actual practical information without an air of superiority shrouded in vague posts that make it seem like I know more than I do.

Hmmm, no you pointing out my spelling error was a blatant attempt to diminish what I had written technically, because it was over your head. If it wasn't, you would have caught onto the fact that I wrote it as such, in order to demonstrate the fact that unless you KNOW what you are doing, and you obviously don't, that you are taking a HUGE risk. Even if you find articles, internet postings, or ancient manuscripts, you are STILL running the risk of injury, due to the inherant variability of all things involved.
Those that have written such, have taken the time to thoroughly understand all of those variables, have measured and understood the tolerances of THAT PARTICULAR WEAPON and THAT PARTICULAR ROUND, and further understand that it can be accomplished under THOSE PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCES. Can anyone say that about your weapon, with the rounds you're using? Didn't you read all of the WISE comments others posted about measuirng your bore, and your rounds and then understanding how much pressure is going to be developed... In other words, it not as cut and dry as you want to be, and without seeing your set-up, no one in their right mind is going to say "yes" or no".
With all of that said, you go right ahead with your bad self... The world could use one less.