CA4 Issues Stay, Expedites Appeal

[yellowsled]

What was the "good" news that Boondock Saint was reporting to be coming down the pipe. Maybe that will make me feel better?

 

[esqappellate]

Are the judges that signed the Stay the ones that will be arguing the case - King, Gregory, and Davis? Or are all involved?

Below is a link listing the CA4 Judges:

http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/judges.htm

The merits panel will hear the case and it hasn't been selected. The motions panel decided the stay. Members of the motions panel may or may not sit on the merits panel. We just don't know and won't know until the morning of the oral argument when the merits panel composition is disclosed to the public. The compositions of the panels are separately determined in rotation by the Clerk of the Court.

 

[Hopalong]

Guys, I'm seeing an awful lot of negativity here. We always knew this was a possible outcome. But in the grand scheme of things, a stay with an intent for an expedited decision schedule is far better than no stay but the courts dragging their heels.

Yes, this sucks. Yes, those of us who had their checks cashed may lose their money (myself included). We all knew that was a risk. But in spite of that, we are moving forward and the case is still being worked by the best and brightest in the field. Heller and McDonald were both stayed all the way to SCOTUS.

Be patient. This is how the process works. It's slow, but it's strong and long-lasting.

And please stop pouring on the hate/conspiracy theories towards the MSP. They are not the problem. They never have been. They are just the instruments of the policy set forth by the real problem, which is the General Assembly.

 

[jonnyl]

Two things came to my mind....

1. 42 other states don't have a problem implementing the system required for shall issue. Why should it be so hard for Maryland that a federal court needs to give them more time?

2. No state has been forced to do it by court order, maybe they are listening to Gansler'[s latest argument (give us some time to legislate ourselves into compliance).

I'm always the optimist and am ordering my Holster and Belt combo (custom made so there will be lead time)

I agree it shouldn't be hard at all for MD to comply. I just think the stay panel didn't want to go out on that limb even if there's only a 10% chance of being reversed on the appeal.

I don't think it was the right decision, but I can see them wanting to punt the stay and expedite the real decision.

The blood in the streets headlines will be bad enough if we win the appeal, image how they'd be now: "Maryland Forced to allow maniacs to carry guns while pending court case is still months away!"

Again, I don't like it, but we're activists here for the most part. For the rest of society keeping the status quo and expediting the hearing would seem like a very reasonable decision.

 

[Elliotte]

I cannot see how these three judges can claim they read both stay motions and Judge Legg's stay denial ruling and then claim they carefully considered the issues. Yes it's a big deal that MD is being forced into Shall Issue, but to quote the VP, "it's a big f-n' deal" that our rights have been so long delayed and as Judge Legg said, any further delay of our rights is a bigger deal than some inconveniences to the state.

Seeing how "carefully" these three considered the issues, I worry how carefully the full case will be considered with all those democrat-appointed judges on the court (2-1 D vs R appointees).

 

[Squaredout]

yes, it was fast and no, they probably didn't apply the 4 criteria. They saw as a BFD and decided not to decide and left the status quo in place until the merits panel rules sometime after October. You can call it political, but honestly don't think partisan politics had anything to do with it. The system isn't perfect. Nothing ever is. I still wouldn't trade it for the system in any other country anywhere in the world (and I know of what speak here).

So basically they did what they wanted to do? Not what the law required? If this is the case we are in big trouble. They are appointed for life and can make their own rules as they see fit.

 

[pilotguy]

This portends bad things. In order to maintain the stay, this panel had to find that there was a likelihood the State will prevail on appeal. That is more than a tip of the hand, even if the "hands" that are tipping are not the same "hands" that will be deciding. There is no appeal from the circuit court in this case after the panel's decision, and review en banc, if permitted. There is a right to petition S.Ct. for review by certiorari, but the chances of such a petition being granted are slim.

I think we will have to win our rights one legislator at a time. It's going to take a while.

Bingo!

 

[Maestro Pistolero]

So the four criteria, then, are not binding principles, but merely suggestions? They didn't consider any of it. Not even giving it one day to create even the impression that it was weighed before rejected is an insult to the plaintiffs. Requiring the expedited reply was even perfunctory. . . the content of the briefs, apparently irrelevant.

Is it possible that the stay be revisited after the merits panel?

 

[m4strmind]

So basically they did what they wanted to do? Not what the law required? If this is the case we are in big trouble. They are appointed for life and can make their own rules as they see fit.

imagine what the nations founders would do...

 

[esqappellate]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a good sign. I just don't think it's bad. (It's bad in the "it sucks" form, but not bad in a foreshadowing of the eventual decision I mean)

Bad would be "We've looked hard at these arguments and decided to issue a stay" That would indicate their expected outcome of the case.

They don't appear to have considered the merits at all ( I wish they did). But instead opted to keep the status quo while expediting the real show.

I think that is exactly right. Come on guys, this is NOT such a big deal in the greater scheme of things. So we wait a little longer. A loss on the merits will be a big deal. A "wait" is not. Don't forget that Judge Legg made us wait too. Oral argument before Judge Legg was in July and his decision didn't come out until March and then he stayed it for over 3 months. And lots of people expect to lose in dct. With the CA4 we will have oral argument in October and more likely than not have a decision well before March. That decision will establish binding precedent on MD.

 

[Dklo]

I cannot talk details right now, but we're working the existing permits hard.

Trust me when I say #1 is those permits.

Patrick,

I dont want to step on your toes with all the great work you are doing. But I applied pre-stay (the first one) and with a G&S reason of "Assumed risk profession with the ability to restrict civil liberties". I have gone through the entire process (investigation etc) and believe I am one of the 365 permits that MSP completed. I want to send an email on the status of my application but I also dont want to mess anything up for you. Should I wait to hear from MSP or go ahead and send an email?

 

[Mike OTDP]

Look, guys. This is cutting edge stuff and we are in the big leagues of civil rights litigation where things move slowly and where success is never guaranteed. The stay is disappointing for sure (I'm probably in the first 365 so I am definitely disappointed!), but the merits is what is important. The stay is small potatoes in comparison. Six months from now, NO ONE will care about this stay if we win in the CA4. Similarly, no one will care about the stay if we lose on the merits in the CA4. If the stay had not issued and we lost on the merits we would all be getting notices to return our revoked permits after a mere 6 months or so of having them. In less than 3 months we will have argument in the 4th Circuit, on a schedule established before the last brief was filed. That's fast, much faster than what poor Mr. Heller had to go through in DC. So buck up. I am planning on going to Richmond for the argument. This will be interesting.

Yup. I'm disappointed in the stay, but not surprised. The courts tend to stay anything that really changes the status quo until the case works its way through the appeal process. Having the hearing expedited is, I think, a cheering development.

 

[OnTarget]

The merits panel will hear the case and it hasn't been selected. The motions panel decided the stay. Members of the motions panel may or may not sit on the merits panel. We just don't know and won't know until the morning of the oral argument when the merits panel composition is disclosed to the public. The compositions of the panels are separately determined in rotation by the Clerk of the Court.

Well, sir, I know of at least one CA4 judge that was a former Assistant Attorney General for the State of Maryland.

 

[Patrick]

I am disappointed greatly. This was simply a punt. Esq and others all said upfront that the merits went our way, but that the court could simply punt. There is no way they went through hundreds of pages of docs in 24 hours. They just tossed it for the next panel, at least speeding things up along the way.

For those of you with outstanding permits...just hold a little bit. I should have some more info in a day or so. We are asking for official written determination from the MSP Superintendent on what they are going to do, and we are prepared to act legislatively next week to hold those in abeyance if that is what it takes. I say that after having worked details with Annapolis in the last few hours.

It's not idle chat. We will piss in Mike Miller's Special Session Punch Bowl if that is what it takes.

We may be on hold, but we won't be stopped.

 

[dlmcbm]

Patrick,

I dont want to step on your toes with all the great work you are doing. But I applied pre-stay (the first one) and with a G&S reason of "Assumed risk profession with the ability to restrict civil liberties". I have gone through the entire process (investigation etc) and believe I am one of the 365 permits that MSP completed. I want to send an email on the status of my application but I also dont want to mess anything up for you. Should I wait to hear from MSP or go ahead and send an email?

What answer are you expecting. I would just hold back in hopes that they will continue to hold them.

 

[Les Gawlik]

Guys, I'm seeing an awful lot of negativity here. We always knew this was a possible outcome. But in the grand scheme of things, a stay with an intent for an expedited decision schedule is far better than no stay but the courts dragging their heels.
\

That's not the way I see it. I would have been perfectly satisfied with no stay and the MSP processing thousands of applications. I would assume that there would be no bad incidents, and the implication would be that there's no reason to reverse Judge Legg because all the sturm und drang feared by the state did not materialize. I know that's not part of the record on appeal, but I bet the judges on the court of appeals would be aware of what happened if the stay were lifted, one way or another. Then, if the appeals court set it in for re-briefing and re-argument a dozen times, I couldn't care less.

There's such as thing in litigation as inertia. If that inertia is working against you, it's always great to break it. Like any sport, the scoreboard only tells part of the story, until the end. Momentum is important.

Probably the motions panel didn't really look at the issues, they only looked at practicality and politics. But if so, why do we have any reason to believe that the merits panel will suddenly wake up and start doing their job? It might be one or more of the same judges. Do you really think that on August 1 he, or they, decided the stay issue based upon the momentum of Maryland's political machine, but in October he'll buckle down, put politics aside and really look at the issues?

Sorry to be negative, but if I were betting, that would be my reasoning. I hope I'm wrong. But we do have an alternative, and that is to be a political force ourselves, individually or collectively. We are on the right side of this argument, and eventually we will prevail.

 

[yellowsled]

I am disappointed greatly. This was simply a punt. Esq and others all said upfront that the merits went our way, but that the court could simply punt. There is no way they went through hundreds of pages of docs in 24 hours. They just tossed it for the next panel, at least speeding things up along the way.

For those of you with outstanding permits...just hold a little bit. I should have some more info in a day or so. We are asking for official written determination from the MSP Superintendent on what they are going to do, and we are prepared to act legislatively next week to hold those in abeyance if that is what it takes. I say that after having worked details with Annapolis in the last few hours.

It's not idle chat. We will piss in Mike Miller's Special Session Punch Bowl if that is what it takes.

We may be on hold, but we won't be stopped.

<--- sitting tight. Thanks.

R/
Hopefull "365" member

 

[Patrick]

With great respect to you and your unchallenged expertise, it's clear to me that our hopes and expectations are little more than mental masturbation.
I do believe that you [or maybe someone else] laid out the specific criteria that the state would have to meet in order to have the stay granted.
Obviously none of that was considered, and none mattered one iota.

This was solely a political decision made by lackies of the system placating the desire of the state. No other explanation is credible given the "super warp" speed and lack of explanation from the court.

I feel like a kid trying to play a game but the ball and all the equipment is owned by a total ******* who wants his own way or he picks up his stuff.

Sorry, we're on a fools errand....unless you're young enough to wait for the second coming!
Someone once said you can't fight City Hall. In this instance that has proven to be the case. I know this is not a final outcome, however it sure gives a good indication of what that is most likely to be.

Heller and McDonald lost a lot more than this, and we're all happy with those outcomes. This case started with a 'win', unlike the others. Heller was also held pending review.

The panel punted. It was always a possibility. I am disappointed, but this does not speak to the merits of the case. This is literally a court saying they don't want to rock the boat.

 

[mrjam2jab]

Now the MSP has plenty of time to replace that old laminating machine and get the process streamlined.

Silver lining.

 

[lordtie20001]

Yep just wasted $75. Im kicked my self now. At least I didn't mail it in yet and waste another $75.